Saying hello to Ketos

(Allie) #62

The body will prioritise burning the alcohol as fuel so it’ll temporarily put the brakes on ketones being burnt, but see how you go, it might work OK for you, it might not. Yo need to find what works for your body.

I have 7.5 cats too, the .5 being this one who doesn’t live here (or so I keep telling him…).

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #63

Yes, the alcohol is dealt with in the liver, which halts making ketones until the alcohol is taken care of. Depending on the quantity, this may take a greater or lesser amount of time.

(Eve) #64

Thanks. So alcohol is pretty much to be avoided then!

(Eve) #65

Does anyone drink regularly? I am not interested in goin so but was interested.

(Eve) #66

Wow that’s wonderful - the more cats the better :grinning:


I drink regularly if you consider 4-15ml vodka a month or something similar regular :smiley:
I had normal portions originally, never drank very much or often though but on keto my amounts just became this ridiculous :smiley: I blame my 20% sugar wine, it had to be tiny and felt strong anyway… It was good to keep beer low too…

And many cats are many potential problems. I have 3.5 and considered 3 borderline much (but it was fine). I told Ginger she’s not my cat and I don’t want her but Ginger didn’t care. I tried not to feed and pet her but that lasted for like 2 hours… Ginger is RED TABBY, my fav! Still don’t want her but it’s not my choice, it seems… All the girls are different and I have only girls. Tofu, Caroline “Cloud” Aida, SnugglePie and Ginger, the kitten with a tip of ear missing, probably an accident. Good mousers, at least some of them but all can catch one, apparently. Very different characters. And I could talk about them forever. We have a cat topic somewhere, with pics.

(Eve) #68

Regarding the body getting used to using ketones / fat adaptation, it has been advised here that l give the keto diet a good 3 months before trying anything with higher carbs. It has taken my body ages to get adapted, but it is getting there now! However, I now worry that if l experiment with something on one day, and l get kicked out of ketosis, there will be a mega payback as my body has to re adjust. Does anyone have any experience on how long it takes to get back into ketosis?


I always have read that it’s at most 2-3 days to get into ketosis… But it may be just a few hours, some higher-carber are in ketosis every day in the morning.

I have pretty much experience with going in/out of keto as I have been doing it since many years :slight_smile: I got fat adapted in 7 weeks, apparently (the changes was just too great, what else could it have been?), promptly quit (missed my vegs) and go in/out since, all the time. I don’t feel if I am in ketosis but certain changes happen or tend to happen if I go low, it seems to me that I lose the lingering effect of carbs in a few days at most. Sometimes it’s great right away and whatever my ketosis does, I enjoy the benefits. Never cared about ketosis, specifically, I just wanted to feel right and be healthy. And with low enough carbs and really low plant carbs, it’s better.

Never experienced anything special but my body is pretty indulgent. It still dislikes adding carbs so I always feel some difference even if I don’t feel unwell. When I was a newbie, I avoided going from keto to high-carb as I have read and it made perfect sense that it’s a big shock to my poor body. But I never experienced that myself long after fat adaptation when I stopped caring about that rule… But before keto, when I did low-carb paleo for a while following with an experimental really carby, sugary day… That wasn’t nice. I got a bellyache and felt off. later I realized it’s not even just the carbs but the type of it. Sugar is worse than starch, low-quality highly processed stuff is the worst (I don’t buy such things but sometimes tastes it at a relative), even a little can cause problems! Animal carbs don’t seem to matter to me at all. But lots of carbs are never good especially not longer term, they seem to get added up. While many people actually can go back to high-carb. I physically can’t. Okay, I could if it would be life or death or almost but it wouldn’t be so nice for a while.

These are all individual. But going back to ketosis never takes a lot of time as long as you go low enough. How low, that’s individual. About 45g net carbs for me, 10g total for some unlucky ones… 20g is a common limit as it works for almost everyone.
The long time is for fat adaptation but we don’t lose it just because we eat off a bit.

(Eve) #70

That’s really helpful Shinita, thankyou. My hope is to have one hot cross bun on good Friday, just before Easter, without paying too high a price!
It has been a real learning curve, dropping the carbs so much, as it has meant giving up lots of my beloved veg, but if l feel better on it, then clearly my body didn’t actually love all that veg after all! Adding in lots of fat has also been a challenge but l am getting there - it’s just a matter a changing my mindset!

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #71

It depends entirely on how insulin-resistant you are. If you are not too bad, then a single hot cross bun is not going to hurt you. But several buns might well be a problem, and if it keeps you on a carb-eating binge for several days, then it could reverse your progress so far.

The carb limit of 20 g/day we recommend here is somewhat arbitrary. Richard and Carl set it because it’s a limit that works well for everyone who is not extremely insulin-resistant. Your actual carb limit may or may not be higher than that. But Alfred Pennington, the corporate physician at DuPont during the 1950’s and 1960’s, and who successfully treated a number of obese employees with a low-carb diet, reported that one executive in particular was so sensitive to carbohydrates that a single extra apple in his diet would cause him to gain weight. If you decide to make the experiment on Holy Saturday (shouldn’t you be fasting on Good Friday? :grin:), you will find out whether you are like that guy, or not.

(Eve) #72

Thanks for the useful reply, as always. I know that having one carb treat will not put me on the slippery slope because I have a total commitment plus am not into sweet carby foods. But l will wait for a while yet before testing the waters in any way - if l can go above 20g then it will be to eat slightly more veg, not other sweet , high carb stuff.
Is there any evidence that after a period of time on a keto diet, the insulin sensitivity will improve? I know that insensitivity is caused by a lack of receptors, but can they be upregulated over time?
BTW, on good Friday the Christian practice is to eat hot cross buns (due to the crucifixion symbolism), not fast, a tradition that l have always enjoyed :grinning: :yum::sweat_smile:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #73

Yes, indeed, insulin resistance can be reversed. The Two Keto Dudes, founders of this site, are both diabetics whose diabetes has been reversed. Richard Morris did it first, then helped Carl Franklin. In fact, they started the podcasts as a way of helping Carl keep going. The telemedicine startup, Virta Health, for which Stephen Phinney and Jeff Volek consult, has published data showing the one-year, two-year, and now five-year rates of successful treatment of diabetes.

Now, it has to be remembered that eating keto is like daily bathing. They both bring specific benefits, and those benefits go away if you stop doing the activity. As Dr. Andreas Eenfeldt says, life is unfair like that.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #74

Sorry. You must come from a different tradition. I’m an Episcopalian, and in the Anglican tradition, Good Friday is a fast day. As the Book of Common Prayer puts it,

The following days are observed by special acts of discipline and self-denial:

Ash Wednesday and the other weekdays of Lent and of Holy Week, except the feast of the Annunciation.

Good Friday and all other Fridays of the year, in commemoration of the Lord’s crucifixion, except for Fridays in the Christmas and Easter seasons, and any Feasts of our Lord which occur on a Friday.

(Eve) #75

So, l am church of England, an Anglican religion too, and when l was in the States used to attend the Episcopalian services, and also when l return for visits. I have to say that l never came across hot cross buns while I lived there so maybe this is just a British tradition, linked with the Christian symbolism - and one to keep the bakers in business :wink: . Nevertheless, l am very happy we have it - particularly after the lenten period! Thanks for your reply :blush:

(Eve) #76

Hi, thinking more about the alcohol question - when you say that if there is alcohol consumed, the liver deals with it first before making ketones again, is this the same as if l eat a piece of bread - the body uses the glucose as fuel from the carb first before making and using ketones , or is it that the liver first breaks down the ethanol in the required detoxification process, therefore temporarily not producing ketones as it is using resources in the detox biochemistry?
I.e. does alcohol affect ketosis by the same or a different mechanism to when there are too many carbs consumed?

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #77

This is an interesting question. Firstly, glucose metabolism is something every cell knows how to do; it is evolutionarily very ancient. So all insulin has to do is to say, “Hey, guys, we’ve got too much glucose on hand, so stop metabolising fat and get rid of the glucose.” But only the liver can handle alcohol, just as it handles other toxins.

As an aside, the liver has a specific metabolic pathway that deals with alcohol, branched-chain amino acids, and fructose. The problem is that this pathway can handle only a limited quantity at a time. So if we overdo these things, the liver gets overloaded, and fat accumulates, leading to fatty liver disease.

But the point here is that, alcohol being a toxin, the liver gives priority to dealing with it over other processes, such as ketogenesis. And in any case, the alcohol gets converted into glucose, so there is no need for ketones at that moment, anyway.

(Eve) #78

Thanks. It makes sense. I knew detox of alcohol is a liver priority and uses coenzymes which are limited in supply, but just want sure how that fittwd into the ketosis picture. So l guess a very simple statement is that anything which results in glucose production will prevent ketosis to a greater or lesser extent.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #79

Almost, but not quite. Glucose production by the liver, gluconeogenesis, is controlled by glucagon and insulin. We need a certain amount of glucose circulating in the blood. If that glucose is coming from excessive carb intake, then insulin inhibits gluconeogenesis, instructs muscles to metabolise glucose, and instructs adipose tissue to store glucose as fat. When carb intake is low enough, then glucagon stimulates gluconeogenesis and ketogenesis in the liver. The glucose feeds the cells that absolutely must have it, fatty acids feed the muscles (assuming we are fat-adapted), and ketones feed the brain and other organs.

(Eve) #80


(Eve) #81

And for someone who is zero carb/carnivore, then the liver will produce just enough glucose that is needed, by gluconeogensis , using the amino acids from all the protein consumed?
Does that also mean that for a carnivore, since the blood glucose is now totally dependent on gluconeogenesis/ protein breakdown, since there is none from carbs in the diet, if alcohol is consumed it can cause real problems? I.e. the organ which takes care of breaking down the ethanol is also the one solely responsible for maintaining an adequate blood glucose, plus the ketones.