Restrict plate fat when trying to lose body fat - discussion


(Adam L) #1

@richard @CanKeto @Fiorella @devhammer I am fascinated to know what you think of the principle put forward in this diagram from @ted.naiman & how it fits into this pretty fierce debate! This really interests me as I still have plenty of body fat to lose & more healing of T2D to be done. Am I understanding ted’s diagram correctly, he’s saying restrict plate fat when trying to lose body fat, he’s talking about fat grams but of course a gram of fat is 9 calories so is he committing the keto heresy of advising some form of fat (calorie) restriction, to achieve body fat loss? Is that a heresy in fact if a keto person has got themselves eating so much fat they have stopped losing body fat but still have plenty to lose? How does this line up with the Phinney pie charts which I learned about in one of the infamous “Martin Arnold” threads and understand that Phinneys charts are meant to be descriptive not prescriptive. Teds diagram is prescriptive, eat less fat, burn more fat. Phinneys charts show body fat loss - albeit at a decreasing rate - as plate fat is increased. Is ted’s diagram basically a prescriptive version of Phinneys adapt phase, for someone who’s chowing down on too much fat? I’m imaging ted saying to me, “hey tubby, lay off the BPC & slices of Kerrygold with cheese & Vegemite on top, come back to that in 6 months once you’ve dropped another 20kg!!!”.


IF - 1 meal/day
Why would my metabolism slow down if I’m getting cals from fat stores?
How can I tell ? Fasting
(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #3

What I find interesting are the forum members who leave after stirring shit, then return under a different name to stir once more.
Even more hilarious, they think we don’t notice…

@Adam
Do your body a huge favor and skip following the high proten/low fat pushers who are busy cutting for their ab show. Bodybuilders are not T2DM sufferers nor should they be advising type 2 diabetics.

All their non ketogenic low fat advice makes me stabby.
They know nothing about insulin resistance.


#4

Not wildly scientific, but I recently added fat to my daily food over and above satiety levels just for the crack. I consumed 2T of coconut oil at breakfast time (to mimic a BPC basically) for a week. Weirdly, I lost weight!


(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #5

Not weird at all. That’s science baby. CICO is a failed model. Take a good look at merica’s bodyfat %


#6

Needed to make use of the “being heavily sarcastic” font for that one!


(Richard Morris) #7

I’ll apologize in advance cos this is going to be a giant wall of text because the answer is nuanced and doesn’t lend itself to a fancy info graphic or a snarky meme about the fat bombs on your belly. But I think I can answer your question precisely.

That’s correct. Ted is advocating caloric restriction in the context of a ketogenic amount of carbs. That’s not a well formulated ketogenic diet. Which as defined by Dr Phinney is an ad libitum diet - where satiety determines adequate fuel levels, and fuel comes from fat.

What Ted apparently doesn’t understand … but he used to understand is that a healthy human can mobilize body fat in inverse proportion to their level of insulin.

This is the chart I usually use

BTW: I got that chart from a guy named Ted Naiman from his presentation at the low carb cruise in 2016.

As you can see in the chart as a persons insulin goes over around 60 pmol/L (8.6 mIU/L in Australian units - divide by 6.9) their fat breakdown (release of body fat from adipose tissue) drops to it’s minimum, as insulin goes below 60 pmol/L it increases rapidly. That’s by design. insulin is like a master switch between burning glucose or burning fat. When you have glucose in circulation insulin rises, and that tells fat cells to stop releasing body fat for use. As you use all the glucose and insulin drops, you can go back to burning body fat.

Now the problem here is what happens to a person who even when they eat nothing, still has insulin above 60 pmol/l?

That’s fasting insulin - how much you make when you aren’t eating any food that causes you to make insulin.

If, when you eat nothing your insulin drops below 60 pmol/l then you are good to go - reduce your calories coming in and your body will supplement from storage.

If however your fasting insulin doesn’t drop below 60 pmol/l then you get hungry, you become lethargic, and your body starts looking for energetic processes to furlough as you are now in a budgetary crisis.

Yeah I kept that thread going because I knew there would be a lot of people who would get something from the debate (even if it got frustratingly circular toward the end). So the Phinney charts are showing how a person who is eating fat to satiety spontaneously changes how much fat they are eating as their body fat contribution changes.

There are 3 things that change that, firstly if you become lean you have less fat to use and you can only use about 1% of your total body fat per day … so that will be a limit. You will spontaneously eat more fat because satiety is key.

The second thing that can change how much fat is coming from your body fat, is obviously insulin. As your insulin rises, you will be able to use less body fat and you will spontaneously eat more.

The other thing that changes how much fat is coming from your body, is how insulin resistant your body fat is. If you are diabetic your body fat has likely become insulin resistant and unable to hold any more fat no matter how much insulin you make. As your fat cells become more healthy they start becoming sensitive to insulin and that will lower fat in circulation and you will spontaneously eat more.

So the question is how does someone get fat if their fat cells are insulin resistant? Well it turns out that your cells ALSO listen to insulin and when it is high they stop burning fat and switch over to burning glucose. That process is called the carnitine shuttle and it’s well described by this guy at low carb breckenridge.

So the next question is why does someone who is type 2 Diabetic and goes on a low carb diet, rapidly lose 70-80 lbs and then stall out for several years before slowly losing weight?

Well a type 2 diabetic has high levels of insulin, because their body has become insulin resistant - especially their fat cells. Those fats cells are sloshing energy into circulation but that high insulin is inhibiting the carnitine shuttle stopping their cellular furnaces from burning fat.

When they go low carb that drops their insulin down to what ever their fasted insulin levels are … and that releases the inhibition on their cells and all of a sudden they have energy to burn … literally. And their fat cells are ignoring insulin so they are feeding the party with MOAR energy.

After they have given up some fat, fat cells become gradually insulin sensitive. What happens next depends on whether the persons fasted insulin is above 60 pmol/l, or below it.

If their fasted insulin is below 60 pmol/L their body fat can continue to keep the party going, they don’t need to do anything. If they restrict calories beyond satiation … then depending on how much body fat they have they may not even notice a metabolic slowdown.

If their fasted insulin is above 60 they will have the same access to body fat as someone who is lean - ie: very little. So what happens to them is they run out of energy, become hungry, lethargic, and their body starts reducing energy use. If they are following the ketogenic diet rules they will eat more fat. And over time with less insulin chronically their fasted insulin will drop and they will gradually lose weight … but it’ll be nowhere like the party for the first 70-80 lbs. In other words they keep calm and keto on.

They eat fat not because they are gluttons. It’s because they have run into the level of their insulin resistance, and using satiety to gauge their fuel so as not to cause a metabolic slowdown. They have healthy insulin sensitive body fat, and their lipids are awesome and their glucose under control - those are 3 great things.

You can definitely overeat fat if you are eating past satiety, but then that wouldn’t be a well formulated ketogenic diet. Only you know if you need a BPC to reach satiety. Don’t rely on facebook “experts” to tell you, they don’t know.


Constantly full (but can't lose weight on fewer calories) and heartburn/puking a little bit
Stalling Despite Low Insulin
Seem to be regressing. Any ideas would be great
I'm not stalling...I haven't even budged to start with (Haven't lost either pounds or inches!)
I should be burning fat, right? Three questions
(KetoCowboy) #8

I’m more cynical than you are.

I think most dispensers of bad advice (from bodybuilders to Dr. McDougall) DO know about insulin resistance. They just intentionally disregard what they know because their sponsors (from insulin-spiking protein powders to Coca-Cola-funded research institutions) insist on pretending that all calories are equal.

All anyone has to do to see the truth is look around at the people who have diabetes and what they’re told to eat by the various agencies that profit from “treating” diabetes.


(Richard Morris) #9

I wasn’t saying what they were doing is good. I’m saying that it was metabolic jackass.

They clobbered these poor peoples metabolic rates for 6 years - so they gained weight even when they kept up exercise and the high protein low calorie diet. They also took them from 2.5x as insulin resistant as a healthy 35 year old, to 3.6x. And stole 5 kgs of their lean mass.

I was just pointing out that that is what happens when insulin resistant people calorie restrict.

The Danes have been running an experiment for several years where they see who lives longest based on BMI. It turns out that a BMI of 28 is currently ideal for a long life, and every decade that is getting higher. So it is entirely possible that a body that is bringing you to 28% BF is optimizing for survival. You won’t be in bikini shape, but that’s not your bodies priority.

Q: Did you ever hear the joke about how many psychoanalysts are required to change a light bulb?
A: Just one. But the bulb has to want to change.

It’s like that with a ketogenic diet, your body will determine how much energy it needs to fuel its anticipated daily activities, given it’s access to stored energy and it will set your satiety levels so you eat that much. How much body fat you end up at will depend on your fasted insulin.

If your carbs are low enough then they won’t put their thumb on the scale and derange that calculus.

If you ask the inventor of the well formed ketogenic diet, Dr Phinney, “what weight you should aim for”, he will tell you that he does not know. Only your body knows that.


(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #10


#13

a tad facetious


(Adam L) #15

Thanks Richard, that’s awesome. In my case a little (incomplete) knowledge, a progress plateau and an expert view that seems to run contra to the accepted view can cause some confusion. I figured if anyone could explain it, you could. I really appreciate your explanation & yes there are a couple of locked threads around here that are a wealth of information.

I’ll KCKO & just check myself regard to the fat bombs & satiety. I’m walking around with a fasting blood sugar that is almost half what it was a year ago so while the scale isn’t moving at present things aren’t so bad!


#16

I guess it depends what you call a bikini body. I would say that you eat a sustainable keto diet and arrive at a shape and weight that is healthy. This may or may not be the shape and weight that you decide you want to be. A healthy body will want a certain amount of body fat. If you want to push past that you may need to manipulate things beyond what I would call a sustainable keto diet. I eat a sustainable keto diet. I wear a bikini therefore I am in bikini shape. I am also in ketosis.


(Jen Andrew) #17

Do they have BMI 28 at the end of life? or it has been 28 when their were young and stayed at the same BMI?


(Jen Andrew) #18

I would like to know that too. I am not loosing any weight, and, if I don’t stop eating because I Think I ate too many calories I do gain weight. I eat around 1500-1800 cal without restricting and I think I am slowly gaining…So how am I supposed to lose weight without cutting calories? I am not insulin resistant, I don’t think I am. I am not diabetic. I did 4 day fat fast about 400cal/ day. lost 3lb and gained it all back. in 2 days. My satiety sensors don’t work … it maybe genetics too, I have few FTO genes.


(Richard Morris) #19

Yeah no kidding. What does Ivor call them? “The devious wankers lurking in the long grasses”.

The well formulated Ketogenic diet is ad libidum - “Eat your fill”. We have become used in our modern world to ad libidum diets being obesogenic, but when you remove carbohydrates that isn’t necessarily the case. Without external carbs in the picture, we revert to a body fat % based on our basal (fasted) insulin.

If you want to get to a lower body fat, nothing (including willpower) is going to help you do that more than simply having the genetic potential to make less insulin.

Ted Naiman mentioned once that his fasted insulin is around 2 mIU/l (14 pmol/l) and you know how much body fat he is able to keep. Mine is currently 13.7 mIU/l (95 pmol/l), I have over 80kgs of lean mass, and around 25kg of body fat. We may both have a similar access to body fat - he because he doesn’t carry much, me because my insulin is high enough to blockade access to it.

But I have a degree of metabolic flexibility that a lean person like Ted wouldn’t have. Ted says that he can’t apparently fast for longer than about 24 hours. I suspect once his circulating lipids are down to what his body fat can replace he bonks. He does recommend that people don’t fast for longer than 18 hours - that may be why.

Personally I’m not convinced we evolved to not be able to go a day without eating. A day of energy to hunt food, let’s say 2000 kCal will require around 63.5 lbs (28 kgs) of body fat to generate. That may be why that danish experiment showed the preference for a higher BMI that it did.

My magic trick is that once I have fasted for 48 hours my insulin does drop, and I have so much energy I can cycle 3 times around lake Burley-Griffin, out to Belconnen and back, and up black mountain without worrying about fueling - over 100km on just salty water.

I’m pretty happy with where I’m at. I reckon if we were depending on chasing down large mammals for survival, guys like me would be the ones feeding the tribe, and the lean guys would be with the women and children. (BTW: just for the record @brenda would be with me on team mammoth hunter)

I’m really not interested in getting into a bikini.

But if you have the genes for it, and that’s a goal that appeals to you - I say go for it. If you have low basal insulin, then caloric restriction will push your body past it’s optimal levels of body fat for survival, and if you can stay in ketosis that will hold onto lean mass while cutting (according to Jeff Volek’s body composition studies).

If you don’t have low basal insulin, caloric restriction can fuck up your metabolism. One way to tell is if you restrict calories and start getting cold extremities then you’re likely entered into a budgetary crisis where the body is cutting back on paying the heating bills - I’d pull back the restriction a little at that point.


(Richard Morris) #20

Yeah that’s the thing though isn’t it. We have good lipids, and stellar glucose - which means we’ve disassociated obesity from the diseases that travel with it like cardiovascular disease and diabetes.

I used to tell people upset that everyone around them is losing weight and they have stopped that it can feel like they are just sitting still at the bus stop while everyone else is getting on buses and going somewhere cool. But the thing is … that bus shelter is a safe place to wait for your bus, and it will come along.

More Insulin makes us more resistant. The flip side of that is the longer we can run at lower levels of insulin the less we will need to make. Body fat will drop as basal insulin levels drop. But it took several decades to get here, it’ll take a couple of years to unwind that.

The worst case is it could take 10 years. Fat cells live roughly 10 years, so in 10 years you won’t have any adipocytes that even remember being in a sick body.


(Richard Morris) #22

Yes I’d agree with that. Calorie counting is mindful eating. I think i was engaging in a little moderate caloric deficit as a function of “I ate HOW MANY CALORIES … OK I’mma have less tomorrow”

Yes. I still agree with that. It’s contextual tho. If I have plenty of fat in circulation from my body then eating to satiety should result in a caloric deficit because that energy from body fat is contributing to that side of the ledger. For someone just started keto which Carl was in the early days of our podcast - that is overwhelmingly the case.

If I don’t have much energy in circulation (because I have 8%BF or Insulin over 60 pmol/L) then that should result in hunger and satiation triggers that will cause me to eat at a caloric parity, or even a caloric surplus.

I’m not entirely sure what the trigger for going heavily into a caloric surplus is, but in evolutionary terms fruit ripening at the end of fall right before winter is a good trigger for both bears and humans to load up on extra calories - so maybe it takes carbs to really pack it on.


#23

Have you tried the feast/fast approach to fasting. Everyone I see who is trying it is getting really positive results.

Check out the podcast with Megan Ramos…

There is a great way to tell if you have a bikini body or not and it is crazy simple. If you want to wear a bikini - wear one. Boom - bikini body right there. Your body in a bikini. Simples!

This would also seem to be a great excuse to post a link to this great video. FYI - impossible to blur swear words!


(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #25

:heart::green_heart::blue_heart::heavy_heart_exclamation::heart_decoration::heartpulse::sparkling_heart::boom::gift_heart::two_hearts::purple_heart::yellow_heart::heartbeat:


(Adam Kirby) #26

This is amazing, how the hell did they get so insulin sensitive after 30 weeks? Was that at the end of Biggest Loser? Was it from the absolutely insane amount of exercise they did? Then what happened after that to cause such a reversal, not being able to keep up the insanity + continuing to eat carb meals? They probably felt miserable from this lifestyle change so binged on junk food, I definitely would.