Curious since I’m not zc but feel best on my keto diet when I eat all-meat-only meals, so considering dabbling in it.
Are you all not concerned with being in ketosis at all due to the infamous gluconeogensis? Just wondering - my ketones are always pretty low anyway since I’m active and LOVE meat so not a ketone chaser
Gluconeogenesis is demand driven - so if that protein didn’t come from food you ate, your body will find it elsewhere.
Gluconeogensis is demand driven, not supply driven. Zero carb experiments I’ve read about have produced higher blood and breath ketone measures, closer to the “therapeutic” ketosis levels rather than the “nutritional” levels.
It’s funny to me because gluconeogensis used to be viewed as a benefit (as in: you don’t need to eat sugar to get the essential sugar for your brain or to maintain a base necessary level of blood sugar) and not a problem (oh no, I’m making sugar so I’ll never be free of it.)
Last, given Ben Bikman’s presentation at LC Breckenridge 2018, I suspect that the zero carb folks are getting the best of fasting while eating large.
My goal isn’t to chase ketones, my goal is to get healthy. Strict keto almost 2 years did not resolve some lower leg inflammation that I have and some seborrheic dermatitis on my scalp. I’m hoping that meat only will do that. I’m also eating twice as much as I did on keto and I’m so happy and so satiated and haven’t gained an ounce. I also think that after my entire adult life being somewhat overweight, that homeostasis for me is going to be at a higher weight than someone else my height. I am wearing a size that I haven’t won since college right now, and I’m 61 years old.
It absolutely seems like a positive adaptation our immensely intelligent human bodies have made! I’m considering going zc because all I really want to eat is meat, but all this “watch the protein” stuff with keto gets on my nerves 
Long story short: Don’t worry about it. Protein and fat are the building blocks of your cells. How could you ever have too much? Just eat meat. You’ll see. The veterans who have been eating this way for 10+ years have no issue with it i have science links if you REALLY need them, but they’re not necessary.
ZC 16 months
I love science! I’d be happy to read anything you recommend, even if it’s not a link but a book or site. THanks
Protein is not ketogenic. it raises insulin and ‘excess’ is converted to glucose because there is literally nothing else the body can do with it. it can’t be dumped back into the colon to be excreted. excess protein will displace the other GNG substrates because there is nothing else the body can do with it. this puts a strain on the body because turning it into glucose is inefficient. It raises glucose and inhibits lipolysis.
GNG is a SUPPLY driven process because in the absence of carbohydrate the DEMAND IS ALWAYS THERE 24/7/365 x how ever long you are alive and you need to SUPPLY your bloodstream with glucose because it constantly DEMANDS it every micromoment of the day. always. forever.
if you supply your body with a large amount of substrate for GNG from your diet (eating it) it will preserve fatty acids, lactate and anything else it can direct away from GNG because of the free substrate you just ingested.
the reason the Ketogains crowd, Naiman etc do not agree is because they engage in intense exercise which drives up the need for protein.
The reason why they promote a protein sparring modified fast/dont add fat to your meals bromide is because they see stubborn weight loss losers (patient/clients) respond to it. The goal for them is to lose weight so they see better results with it (from that point of view) but it is necessarily, and by definition less ketogenic.
so what is your goal? losing weight? being ketogenic? both? are you working out intensely? these are all questions that need to be asked when figure out how much protein to eat.
more info along the same theme
IMO the only reason to go ZC is if you have a seemingly demonstrable issue with plant foods.
You can be ZC and keto if you keep the fat ratio at or above 75% or so.
The Eades are hardly part of the keto gains crowd. Neither is Ben Bikman. All three recommend considerably more protein than Dr. Fung and Dr. Rosenstein.
I’m not sure that the science of protein is as settled as you make it seem.
The"science" it’s not established. Also, these results are not being done in a carnivore cohort. Someone who is Fat adapted is going to have a very different metabolism then someone on a standard American diet. http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/07/gluconeogenesis.html?m=1
I believe that the ketone numbers blown/drawn from folks going carnivore puts a lie to this. Frequently blowing on the margin between nutritional ketosis and therapeutic ketosis. 5’s and so.
In general I take this author’s distinction between the metric and the mechanism behind the ketogenic WOE. But this passage is driving me a little crazy:
“The effect of ketones in the body, whether consumed from biohacker fuel ™ or made endogenously in the liver, is merely to elevate insulin levels. This is how our physiology quite normally regulates fat metabolism, both in fasting as well as on high fat diets… It is normal physiology for ketone appearance in the body to stimulate pancreatic insulin release, which works like negative feedback to suppress lipolysis, FFA, and the appearance of more (excessive) ketones.”
This is in exact opposition to what I’ve heard many respected researchers and clinicians say. In fact, Ben Bikman says that ketones and insulin exist in direct opposition to one another - if ketones are being produced, insulin CANNOT be high. I’ve also heard this from my coach in the IDM program and many others.
So I believe that statement is factually incorrect, which gives me pause in attributing credibility to the rest of the blog post. Did I miss something?
I’m sorry, but protein is essential for life, so it is “ketogenic” by definition. It does stimulate some insulin production, but at less than half the rate at which carbohydrate does. Fat barely stimulates insulin production at all, which is why it is the macronutrient of choice for people who want to eat a ketogenic diet. Although protein can be used for gluconeogenesis, gluconeogenesis is triggered by demand, not by an excess of the raw materials. Proteins, whether ingested or already present in the body, can be disassembled into their constituent amino acids, and the body produces various enzymes for the purpose. The amino acids can then be reassembled into other proteins as needed. In the case when the body is overloaded with protein, the amino acids can be further broken down, and the unneeded nitrogen excreted in the form of ammonia. In fact, @richard just did a post on this very topic a few days ago in the Science forum. Bear in mind that too much ammonia in your system can be toxic, so that is a reason not to go too far overboard with protein consumption. Richard discusses just how much protein in the diet will lead to ammonia toxicity, and apparently the limit is quite high.
If you do a little reading on these topics, you will learn that once fat-adapted, the body has very little need for glucose, except for certain neurons in the brain that are too small to have their own mitochondria, and a couple other organs in the body. By and large, however, the brain does better on beta-hydroxybutyrate, because too much glucose causes insulin resistance, and insulin resistance makes it difficult for insulin to penetrate the blood-brain barrier, thus starving the brain. This is the reason for the mental sharpness and sense of well-being that people often feel on a ketogenic diet.
Dr. Georgia Ede and Dr. Peter Attia have done excellent blog posts dealing with these matters and citing the relevant research. If you check the Low-Carb Breckenridge 2018 thread, you will find a link to a lecture Dr. Ede just gave that goes into these processes in some detail.
