Protein-rich Diet (Liver Shrinking Diet) vs PSMF

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#88

Have you read anything by Lyle McDonald before? He addresses and debunks a lot of these myths (ie, losing weight quickly is always worse, etc). The reality is that stresses on the body are often how we can ultimately effect positive changes: exercise, cold therapy, fasting, etc. Being comfy and cozy all the time is not ideal in my opinion, the body adapts and needs to be kept guessing.

(Scott Cavendish) #89

For me, no I was not fat adapted when I did mine. Didn’t even know what that meant back then. I supplemented with 10 fish oil a day, multivitamin, and for a while I followed Lyle’s protocol for the EC stack (ephedra/caffeine). Not sure if it helped, but I continued my weight loss until I stopped. After I transitioned out I just watched calories for a while, and maintained for a year or two before it slowly crept back up.

(Scott Cavendish) #90

My wife tried the PSMF with me, but she only wanted to lose 25 lbs or so. Despite my fat melting away, she struggled to lose any real weight, and being miserable eating the bland low fat low carb diet, didn’t last long.

(Adam Kirby) #91

Ok then, try a PSMF and get back to us on that. :stuck_out_tongue: I’m not particularly interested what Lyle McDonald thinks about anything. Like I’ve said before this protocol is a good hack for certain people and situations, but based on the N=1 of people in this very thread it looks like the consequences of it can be very much like any low-calorie diet. It certainly is not some panacea of weight loss. But self-experimentation is the key, so for reals make a thread chronicling your PSMF.

#92

Alas, there are other places to read about the results people have had doing PSMF. But I get your point, I’ll document and post based on my success. Spoiler, I have already dropped below my 9-month low of 208lbs and it’s day 3. Rapidly approaching high school weight. From a “how does it feel” standpoint, it feels like a water fast but with about 30% less effort and head-trash.

(Adam Kirby) #93

If it works effectively that will be awesome! I genuinely believe there are people who will get great results and terrible results with any diet protocol. Even our beloved keto, there are people who can’t stand eating huge quantities of bacon and cheese for some reason. :confused:

(Richard Morris) #94

I can tell you a guaranteed way to lose weight. eat less food.

If you don’t have enough body fat to supply the energy shortfall then you will burn protein for energy (even if you eat ONLY protein) and you’ll weigh less.

If you have restricted access to body fat because some tissue other than your adipose tissue is keeping insulin elevated … then the same will be true.

You can also expect to experience a lowered metabolic rate as your body tries to find ways to avoid using protein for energy (ie: lethargy), you can also expect increased hunger signalling.

These symptoms may be familiar to anyone who has tried calorie restriction. You will definitely lose weight, until your can’t out-restrict your reduced metabolic rate … and then you will gain weight again. That is why the biggest loser competitors all gained back all the weight after 6 years, and their lean mass dropped from their lean mass when they started the competition.

I suspect that anyone who has lost a significant amount of their body weight, and has stalled has necessarily regained insulin sensitivity in their adipose tissue AND some other tissue is keeping their insulin elevated - meaning they have reduced access to energy from storage.

But If you do have plenty of body fat, and you have low fasting insulin then this will not be a problem for you. As you consume less energy, you will happily draw down some from storage.

#95

Yep. WLS person here and that is exactly what happens unless you wise up and change how and what you eat.

(Adam Kirby) #96

Have you tried a PSMF yet @Rian? I just did one for 2 days. It was totally fine for me. Was definitely hungrier than normal but that’s the extent of the problems. I feel like I could definitely do a longer one if I wanted. Whether or not I get any lasting benefits from it I don’t know.

#97

I’m nearing the end of week 3 of my PSMF. Over that time there have been a couple days where fat was a tad higher via ribeye and also a couple glasses of wine but overall it’s been approx 800-calories containing around 130-grams of protein per day, low fat and next to no carbs and plenty of EFA’s from fish oil. I can honestly say I have never felt better. Never. The hunger from the early days is long gone, I’ve now transitioned to OMAD on most days and even then I’m not really hungry per se. I plan on doing a write-up at the end which will likely come sometime in early June. So far fat loss is around 10-lbs give or take (5% of bodyweight). Keep me updated on your progress, there aren’t a ton of people I’ve seen experimenting with this WOE so it’ll be interesting to compare results.

(Adam Kirby) #98

Wow that’s great! Looks like this is a good approach for you. My experiment was about 800 calories of tuna for 2 days, so pretty much pure protein, no fat at all. I’m not sure how long I could keep that up before I felt ill effects, but a few days is no problem. I’m thinking about working in a 3-day fast or protein fast every month just to get an extra catabolic state going periodically.

#99

One thing I’ve noticed before and noticed again during this PSMF is I feel really, really good when I supplement fish oil. I’m not sure if I’m naturally lacking in EFA’s or if the added vitamin A or D is what I’m feeling but 5-6 grams of fish oil per day is something I plan on doing long term.

One thing that’s interesting is which amino acids are contained in various protein sources. Some are definitely better than others and in my experience a variety is crucial. I feel the most satisfied and the best overall when I eat beef which is a common theme amongst the ZC community. I’ve heard Shawn Baker say something similar before. That being said, beef is obviously not as lean as chicken or tuna so maybe that’s a contributing factor also.

(G. Andrew Duthie) #100

How long have you been supplementing at that level? Have you experienced any unusual bruising?

Personally, I’ve found that if I overdo fish oil, it can have an anticoagulant effect, so I dialed back my fish oil a bit to reduce unwanted bruising.

#101

Only for about 3 weeks. I haven’t noticed the bruising yet but I’ll be on the lookout. I’m dosing high partly because of the PSMF and partly because I’m trying to heal some dental caries with vitamin D and K2 supplementation which does appear to be working BTW.

(G. Andrew Duthie) #102

Any reference material on that? Curious, as I supplement D3 and K, for other reasons, but if it helps keep cavities at bay, all the better. :slight_smile:

#103

It depends how much you wanna geek out. If you want to get really deep into vitamin K2 (or better yet the half-dozen or so vitamins all lumped into the K2 category) I’d probably check out episode 29 of Chris Masterjohn’s podcast Mastering Nutrition. I use overcast so no promises on the link but you’ll find it.

As for the dental aspects, it goes all the way back to Weston A. Price as you may know. Although he didn’t know it was K2 he was talking about when he wrote about “activator X”. But he did discover the combination of vitamin A, vitamin D, and K2 were great for dental health. Essentially, K2 tells calcium in your body where to go. One of the functions anyway. If you haven’t heard of this book I highly recommend it. It’s very keto friendly, it gives some good history on dental health and nutrition, and it has just enough science to keep you hooked without reading like a textbook.

The Dental Diet: The Surprising Link between Your Teeth, Real Food, and Life-Changing Natural Health https://www.amazon.com/dp/1401953174/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_kl74AbBZJ38RF

(Jennifer Kleiman) #104

I’m giving PSMF a go myself, currently one week in. I am loving it far beyond my expectations. My ketones are hovering between 3-6, glucose 70s- low 100s like normal, lost 4-5 lbs so far and my energy level is excellent. When I’ve done extended fasting I’ve sometimes felt cold or physically weak but not with this PSMF.

I wonder if part of how I feel is due to a reaction to some of the non-meat foods I was eating on my regular keto diet. I’m doing this PSMF ZC-style, just lean meat for 90g protein daily plus 6g fish oil and various supplements, no veg. When I break the PSMF I’m going to try to investigate that.

#105

I’m glad to hear it’s working well for you, I have also had great success. The reality is that protein is nothing is to shy away from on keto. The other reality is that fat loss is best achieved by restricting energy intake. PSMF is the result of these two facts, therefore it works like a charm. Well formulated crash diets have gotten the same bad rap as intermittent fasting amongst the mainstream, which is unfortunate because both are very effective for fat loss. The issues come from people making bad choices after a crash diet or IF (skip breakfast, become hangry, eat five things out of the vending machine). This is part of the reason the Biggest Loser example we keep getting around here is so flimsy. Eventually you have to return to maintenance following any calorie restricted diet, if you start gaining fat on “maintenance” then you have exceeded maintenance levels of calorie intake, pretty simple. Yes BMR can drop some on calorie restriction but it’s not anywhere near what some would scare you into believing.

Keep us posted on how you do, I’m saving my results for a write-up next month but it’s been awesome. My bet is in a year or two this will be the default advice for how to break a stall on keto. But I guess we’ll have to wait and see.

(Jennifer Kleiman) #106

@Rian I will update, and keep an eye out for your write-up as well.

For my part I had been at 145 lbs on the scale for the past 1.5 years and was stalled just doing keto + IF/EF… I’d get a little below 145 but not as much as I should’ve given the calorie deficits or fasting schedules I was doing, and immediately regain if I let up. I then found out I had hypothyroid & anemia which was an impediment to progress and have been working on getting those fixed, yay. I am just about back to functional levels so I decided to make another push at cutting by more extended fasting again, but with my thyroid being finicky I have been told not to do that… oops. So PSMF!

I had heard about PSMF before of course but figured it was just for bodybuilders overly concerned about their lean muscle mass. And why should I try when simple water fasting was so easy for me and holds the additional promise of autophagy maybe shrinking loose skin? Well, I should have recognized I was pushing fasting too far, what with getting cold and not having great energy. So far with PSMF my thyroid seems to be very happy judging by energy level & body temp. And, fine, I’m lifting weights. Actually fun.

#107

Just listened to Dr. Ted Naiman. He hasn’t changed his tune in the past year.

Wondered where I can find the n=1 write ups mentioned in the posts above?

@Rian et al