Gluconeogenesis: I keep hearing that it's only demand driven, can that be right?

(mole person) #17

I’d watched this before but it was great and worth a second viewing. Honestly, I may give it a third go to really cement the content in my brain.

#18

Was this an intended pun? Bravo! :smile:

(mole person) #19

I’m interested in this as well.

(Jennifer Kleiman) #20

That’s almost exactly right to my understanding, except that the protein consumption triggers glucagon response directly, rather than the glucagon being triggered by low blood glucose. That’s why I see a glucose spike from drinking a 50g whey protein shake, the whey isolate triggers a huge insulin AND glucagon response and it takes 30-45 mins to balance out. The dynamics of the insulin & glucagon responses vary by quantity - insulin increases fairly linearly along with amt consumed, but glucagon tapers off, so if you or I consumed a huge amount the insulin will dominate the glucagon. These responses vary individually to some extent too, and of course are seriously deranged in diabetics

(mole person) #21

Thanks. That all makes perfect sense to me now.

(Jennifer Kleiman) #22

I just did a 3-week PSMF where I was eating a little bit more protein than I generally do, 90g/day, whereas usually I’m at 70-80ish, but fat was down at 20g/day as opposed to my usual 70-100gish. My blood glucose during the PSMF was consistently in the 70s-80s, whereas on my normal keto diet I run in the 80s-90s. I believe this has to do with the extreme calorie deficit keeping insulin low overall despite the insulinogenic nature of protein. Lost 10 lbs of bodyfat as near as I can tell and broke a lengthy stall.

I agree that overeating protein can stall weight loss or contribute to weight gain if also eating above or near your energy needs on the other macros, but I definitely had a lot of success cutting bodyfat on high protein. Happy to be going back to a happy standard keto diet now though :slight_smile:

Protein-rich Diet (Liver Shrinking Diet) vs PSMF
#23

It is amazing how easy and awesome it is to return to normal keto after a PSMF. Just adding in a little butter or whipped cream after a few weeks of high protein feels like heaven. PSMF is not sustainable for long but it works incredibly well, I had the same great results you did. It’s cool to see the fear of protein on keto slowly disappearing.

(Chris) #24

It’ll come from your lean tissue if not. The glucose your body wants must come from somewhere.

(Brian) #25

I don’t do protein shakes but do occasionally use some whey protein powder in a keto dessert. I tend to be cautious about it and don’t want to use it as a staple of my diet mostly because of it’s reputation as a spiker of insulin. I’m not “afraid” of it. I just use lightly and only occasionally.

Probably a bit off topic but just something that came to mind.

(Diane) #26

Hehehe…

#27

I don’t seem to have much reaction to whey but for those who do have you tried casein? Apparently it absorbs more slowly and is more satiating. I have some casein powder and taste-wise it’s good but it’s grainier than most whey I’ve had.

(Steve Stephenson) #28

An amazing blog post by tuitnutrition.com! Near the end there’s this:

I recommend this video for an absolutely frikkin’ fascinating lecture on glucagon, and the importance of glucagon and insulin working in concert to regulate BG. I had my mind blown several times while watching. Well worth your time if you want to understand this stuff.

The video title is, “A New Biology For Diabetes”, the Rolf Luft Award 2014, Prize Lecture by Professor Roger Unger, University of Texas.

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #29

All of Rosedale’s citations on the deleterious effect of mTOR ignore two crucial facts:
AMPK is upstream from mTOR… it can regulate mTOR expression
LCHF/Keto/Fasting stimulates AMPK phosphorylation, thus downregulating mTOR.

I would go with Fung’s theory of protein stimulating insulin, except that Bikman smacked that with context dependency like he was the average sized, white Mutumbo.

It’s all very context specific. If your fasting glucose/insulin is in good shape, and you are LC, protein is your body’s buddy. If your fasting insulin is T2D, I think Fung is your guy.

Rosedale is so focused on mTOR that he’s not seeing the importance of context. That’s why there’s been very few outbursts from him since the 2017 LC Breckenridge.

GNG, protein and blood glucose re-visited
(Jason Jodway) #30

To say GNG is demand driven is misleading as that implies the explicit need for glucose is why it happens and that is simply not true. It is signalling driven. Certain substrates will always drive GNG but we don’t eat these directly really and it amounts to a meaningless amount. Otherwise, it is the combination of hormonal levels, FFA levels, and availability of amino acids that dictates GNG. T1 and T2 in high glucagon/FFA states will have more GNG despite a high glucose state.

“surplus protein” is in of itself misleading. The fate of amino acids is vast. They can be used for their primary purpose as components of protein structures, cross converted into other amino acids for the same purpose, incorporated into the urea cycle, deaminated to carbon skeletons and used as intermediates in the TCA cycle, or, yes, have the carbon skeleton used as a substrate for glucose production. The key here being there is no requirement for amino acids to become glucose to be used as a metabolic substrate. They can also simply be lost in urine.

The most primary concern about very high protein consumption is that the oxidation of amino acids for metabolic fuel produces ammonia which is toxic. Each individual person will have their own maximal rate of binding this ammonia as urea and excreting it.

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #31

A thing that only really happens on LCLF or in more caloric restricted versions of LC. Amino acids are, to my understanding, the last choice for energy.

(Jason Jodway) #32

They certainly aren’t prioritized to be oxidized as that destroys them as amino acids which are essential structural components, but it is one of the potential ultimate fates of amino acids.

(Jason Jodway) #34

This is extremely inaccurate. There is literally never a time you aren’t oxidizing some amino acids.

(Brian) #35

I haven’t actually noticed anything negative by using what I have but then again, it’s pretty small amounts of it. It’s mostly just the chatter online that gives me cause to be a little mindful at least.

Had a week of “indulging” with the keto sweets as we had company most of last week. Hit a new weight low yesterday so it’s obviously not pushing the scale higher. (?)

I am guessing that most people that use whey protein powder are probably using it in conjunction with weightlifting or bodybuilding of some other heavy exercise routine and in considerably larger amounts than I would. I don’t “work out” but I do work outside a lot of days, not sure if that counts. :wink: But I also just use it as an ingredient in the occasional baked treat, mostly as a conditioner of sorts to help with texture that’s just not there with the gluten we’d have if we were using wheat flour.

Thanks for the suggestion of casein, though.

:slight_smile:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #36

Here’s where I learned about it:


I’m certainly not going to argue with Richard!

Everybody’s a comedian! :grin:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #37

Huh. Interesting!

Well, then, that’s probably why Bikman and he seem so far apart. Do you have a reference I could check out? Preferably one for the easily-confused? I really need to learn more about this stuff, and I’d prefer not to have to follow Richard back to university, lol! :smiley: