Phase 2: Average dude trying to get from 22% body fat to 15%

(Paul) #1

I’m trying to find some people who have found some techniques to get to a phase 2 fitness level:

  • Nutrition
  • Exercise
  • Fasting
  • Other techniques

i know there are forum tags for diabetes, is there a tag for average folks trying to get a little healthier, a little leaner, etc

I’ve been doing keto for 6 months, I’ve lost 25 pounds and 2% body fat (i expected to lose more percent fat, but not complaining), and things are going well, but a few weird things:

  • blood ketones have been ranging 0.5 to 0.9, i guess that’s ok, but curious to know what would happen if i can get them higher
  • i expected to lose more body fat percent, i’m not weaker in the gym
  • I’ve seen people drop to 15% body fat, did they do anything different?
  • i already exercise an hour a day (running or lifting), i don’t think i need to ramp that up, but i could

I am willing to be a guinea pig tester on this and try different things, I’m not really in a stall, but some more ideas would be fantastic

Would more exercise be beneficial?

#2

You sound a bit like you might get on well with the Ketogains crowd?

But there are some hardcore exercisers on here too. @ianrobo does epic cycle rides for example.

(Bart) #3

I went from 30% to 9-10% body fat on keto with minimal exercise (mainly due to an Achilles injury from running which sidelined me first then an shoulder injury from a fall which required surgery and sidelined me even longer). I did this with keto and intermittent fasting. I am not a T2D though I would have become one if I did not make a change in my way of eating.

Here is my advice, stick with keto and stay in ketosis. Through in 16-8 to 24 hour eating windows and be patient. Losing the last 10-15 pounds can be rough. Also do not worry about the scale as much as other things like BF%. I dropped to 10% body fat from 30 in about 4-5 months. A year later I am about 9% BF and weigh 10 more pounds due to lean mass being added. That lean mass did not come from exercise since I did very little of it due to the above mentioned injuries, it was added from eating the keto diet.

I do recommend looking into kettle bells. I started using those a month ago (started again, I early on started using them and screwed my lower back up, lol) and I can tell a difference in strength and composition after several weeks of short workouts swinging that thing around. Just learn proper form and do not push it to stave off injuries.

@daisy may be right about ketogains for you, but I can tell you they are not for me. Ketogains seems to push higher amounts of protein than I personally want to include in my diet, I am more in the Dr. Ron Rosedale camp when it comes to protein… Though I do still lurk around their website from time to time because I believe the more information I can ingest the better for it will help me make the best decisions.

Which leads me to last tip, to not just listen to one person and base your decisions on their advice alone. What works for one may not work for another. We are all very unique individuals and we all need to figure out how our unique bodies work and what it is the best path for us. No single person has all the answers for you but every single person probably holds some knowledge that will help you find the right path whether they are the ketogains weight lifters, the T2D’s, the ultra marathoners, the Paleo/Primal crowd, Vegans, etc. Even bad advice/data can help your figure out the right choices to make.

I guess this will be my last tip of advice is working out is not the best way to lose body fat, diet is. This has been proven time and time again and it is why you see overweight marathoners. Sure you can be building muscle which is awesome, you can be improving cardio which is awesome, but if you think doing all that alone will cause you to lose body fat you will be disappointed. You can not outrun a diet and from everything I have gathered from all my personal research is fat loss is about 90% diet. Exercise for health but not for fat loss, diet for fat loss. Oh, and get good deep sleep. Control your insulin and cortisol and you will lose weight.

Just my thoughts… good luck.

#4

Great advice. I would also listen to the latest podcast. It is very timely - all about switching things up to shift the weight. Check it out, I think you will like it @Paulsun. I am not a fan of Ketogains either. There may be some useful stuff you can glean though. Like @Bartdorman says, research widely and hone things down to suit YOU. Remember - n=1

(Paul) #5

Yep, I’m pretty quick to devour the keto dudes podcast as soon as they come out (jealous of the trip to Breck), and I was already familiar with Megan Ramos from the fasting talk podcast. i will hold off on ketogains and wait to see where keto brings me, some patience might be the right ingredient to add

#6

I couldn’t have said any of it any better than that. :grinning:

Carry on!

#7

I always make sure to keep a good stock of it in my store cupboard :wink:

(ianrobo) #8

I would say that a key factor is not to rely on body fat from scales, unreliable.

look at other measurements rather and upgrade your exercise as you get fitter.

Above all show patience !

(Adam Kirby) #9

Also they are mostly CICO obsessed.

(Jennifer) #10

You might want to check your macros - if protein is a bit too high, it can be metabolized as glucose and can cause your ketone levels to be lower. Check out @Brenda s progress on her steak thread. She cut back on her protein and is losing like a fiend now.

(ianrobo) #11

if going to phase two of your regime, some extra protein will not be too much of a problem IMHO.

I do think too many people look at a narrow range of figures rather than what happens in the gym, on the bike or running

#12

IMO it is so individual. I guess there is a workable range but how can you standardise such a thing? Surely you start with a given standard range and then you experiment on yourself until you hit the sweet spot for YOU???

(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #13

Dudes and dudettes:

If you trust Phinney and Volek, they recommend .6 to 1 gram protein per pound of LBM (lean body mass). Lower end if sedentary, higher end if an athlete. I’m in the middle so I do .8 grams per pound of my LBM, which I THANKFULLY know ACCURATELY now because I had a DEXA scan last week.
Estimate your LBM as well as you are able. There are many methods besides the DEXA.

MODERATE YOUR PROTEIN!!

Then eat the hell outta fat. You’ll thank me later.

#14

Don’t forget to give your body time to recover; also, consider replacing some longer sessions with HIIT (high intensity interval training).

(Abraham Reyes) #15

CICO comes to play when building muscle… wether its cutting or bulking you can’t just wish that somehow not tracking will give you the results you are after …

(eat more) #16

a lot of ppl here don’t track anything they just eat…that doesn’t mean they are “wishing” or eating more/less than is appropriate for their bodies/needs
i do track because i’m a nosy control freak and i need data to analyze :joy:
BUT…i track my macros and mostly ignore the calories report on my app…however i don’t “pre-plan” my eating…like mapping out my day/week’s macros in advance…i eat what i eat and log it :blush:

KG calculator has me at around 1000 calories a day with pretty much equal parts for protein and fat…that’s just massive calorie restriction while eating low carb/keto foods…which will just slow my metabolism to a screeching halt

and then there are folks like jason witrock that have intentionally eaten above their “normal” TDEE and lost bf%

there are quite a few discussions regarding hormone (insulin) management versus calories here on this forum. poke around :slight_smile:
(using the forum search function for CICO will probably bring up most of them but i think there are some useful posts peppered around in other threads as well)

i would like to say that CICO is the thing because it would simplify things for me…“only eat this much and lose fat” but that has not worked for the masses…or me for decades LOL

have you seen the feast/fast threads?
listened to the megan ramos podcast?

building muscle happens from using the muscle…just like you can’t outrun a bad diet…a bad diet doesn’t prevent you from building muscle…i’ve done it :joy:

(Tim W) #17

Bartdorman just about covered it, I want to “second” his experience.

I ran marathons at 185, never lost weight during the training etc (was doing the classic carb load program).

I started IF in Feb of 2016 to drop those last “few pounds” and dropped to 165 within a few months (around 10-12% body fat).

The IF turned into fasting, the fasting turned into keto (funny how the two keto dudes went from keto to fasting, I came in the “other way”)…

What I now believe is that diet is 99% of weight loss and management. I run 35-50 miles a week and it ONLY keeps about 7-8 pounds “off” (mostly beer weight).

Exercise requires calories to support. If you want to continue your exercise regimen AND lose weight, keto + IF is the way to go.

I didn’t stress working out fasted. I’d often work out first thing in the AM and not eat until 1800 or so, and stop eating by 2100, then get up and do it again the next day. I’ve also fasted for 5 days and ran 12 miles on the sixth day, it won’t kill you and you won’t lose every muscle in your body as the supplement manufacturers would have us believe.

If you are willing to back off the exercise (and I feel you if you are not, I’m addicted myself) then you will probably see faster results, counter-intuitive yes but, exercising like you are requires closer attention to diet and trying to find that sweet spot of enough to support but not too much that you store fat.

Another angle of attack is a 5-7 day fast, you’ll drop some water weight and, if you take your time maybe “working up” to that period (I started with 24, then went 48 etc…) you’ll be able to continue to exercise while fasting (just not as powerful/explosive/fast on your runs) and probably accelerate the loss (not that it would be a good thing…).

Good luck!

It’s funny you mention this. I’m in a “build muscle phase” (trying to win a pull up competition later this month) and I’ve been playing with the keto gains calc.

If I plug in that I’m at 10% BF, it reports that I need 147 grams of protein for today (shooting for 1 gram per…). I was curious so I bumped the BF number up just to see the result, if I go to 15% BF, the number becomes… 139, a whopping 8 gram diff. I don’t think the calc is “wrong” or “off” but this is (to me) an illustration of how having a range rather than a super specific target probably makes more sense.

For example, I shoot for 130 to 150 grams of pro a day and don’t sweat if I’m a few over or under. When doing an exercise I often shoot for a range as well, say 8-10 reps rather than “I must hit 10 reps or this workout is a failure”. I will admit, it’s taken some time to give myself that “slack”. I’ve been pretty rough on myself at times. Using ranges makes life simpler, I even do it with body weight, I don’t sweat it until I go over a number, anything below is fine by me.

(Kim) #18

Apologies for late reply. In a fairly similar position, measuring bloodketones and glucose fairly regularly…spreadsheets and everything. But not too much protein in anyone meal or close together and ketones drop and glucose goes up.