Paleolithic Ketogenic Diet

(traci simpson) #41

It’s slowing down, and I’m getting more stomach pains then the D but it’s still there. I added some carbs (cauliflower) last night for dinner, hoping that it might decrease. I was able to get through the night with no issues so that’s good but it’s still there. UGH.

P.S. that was very nice of you to ask. :heart_eyes:

(Ken) #42

I have cooked Sweetbreads in the past, Ris de Veau in French. My preference is the French style, such as Sweetbreads in Cream, but there are many recipes.

(FRANK) #43

Traci, have you thought about seeing your doctor? I 'm wondering if you may be battling some type of stomach ulcer. If it persists you should really get it checked out. It’s one thing to speculate, but it’s another to know for sure. Keep us posted.


Ah, the plane to Hawaii. (Prof S Phinney)

(Darcy Greenwald) #45

I’ve been desperately trying to find other people following the PKD protocol. I have been working with Dr Clemens and Paleomedicina since December 3 (I had my first consult.) So I’m a little over 2 weeks in. It has been extremely difficult for me, though I was already following a strict low carb diet, of mainly meat, fish, and vegetables (no fruit, beans, grains, etc) for many years. The reason why I decided to try the PKD is I have some autoimmune markers (lupus) showing up in my bloodwork, and am also diagnosed with CIRS, a serious genetic condition that causes severe inflammation from water damaged buildings, mold, VOC’s etc. I am experiencing all kinds of symptoms on the diet, including low energy, exhaustion at night, explosive diarrhea, skin itching, seriously bleeding gums, weird “plugged ear” symptoms off and on, brain fog and difficulty thinking. I also react to the eggs and marrow, and I think the rendered fat I am using. I thought the worst symptoms were only supposed to last for the first few days (as per Dr Clemens herself), but I am miserable and not sure how I am going to make it another two weeks before my next consult. They are trying to wean me off my thyroid med, Armour, which they said is the worst one to wean off of, so I am not sure if some of my symptoms are from the med. But I am not sure I can go for months like this–in fact, I’m sure I can’t. I am wondering if others have similar struggles? Maybe I’d rather have my autoimmunity!

(Darcy Greenwald) #46

Hi Renee, you are the only person I’ve found online currently following the PKD. It sounds like you are doing pretty well. I’ve been doing this for a little over 2 weeks, and about as miserable as I can be. At this point it hardly seems worth continuing, as I feel so terrible every day. I posted another explanation of my condition and struggles below. Its just nice to connect with someone else who knows about the PKD…did you start off with a consult with Dr Clemens?


@darcygreenwald My friend, you (we) are not alone but I know what you mean. Welcome to the PKD and to the forum! :smile:

My first month was pretty miserable since I spent most of it in the restroom, sigh. Since finances are kind of tight for me these days I skipped the consult although I’d like to do that in the future. I did listen to podcasts and such with her by others like Dr. Baker though. There is also a subreddit for PKD:

I find the KetoAF forum very helpful too:

I’ll go and look for your other post but do try to hang in there. The benefits are worth it in the long run.


@darcygreenwald Oh boy!! No wonder you are having such a hard time with this. Just trying to get off of the Armour Thyroid med will be hard and could be the problem with some of those symptoms you are having. I used to take that too. How many grains are/were you on?

I’ve had super low energy and brain fog. So far I’m still not experiencing the energy that most carnivores do but I’m just 2 months in and depending on one’s health issues the transition can be dicey in the beginning. I thought that being 3 years strict keto before this would make it easier but that hasn’t been the case. I had the diarrhea issues for almost the entire first month of PKD. Now I only get that if I over eat go go lower than the 2:1 fat to protein guideline.

I know they like to wean folks off of the meds as soon as they can but the plugged ear symptoms, skin itching, exhaustion and even some of those other symptoms sound like thyroid med issues. Some of that could be oxalate dumping too. I’m glad you are consulting with them since a thyroid med is involved. Are your fats where they need to be?

It seems that most folks, from what I’ve read, can do the switch to carnivore without any major issues but for some of us, oh boy! It can take a while sometimes. Try to hold on and see what they say at your next consult. {{HUGS}}

(Edith) #49

Definitely look into oxalates and oxalate dumping. If you were already eating low carb, you were probably ingesting a fair bit of oxalate containing foods. Many vegetables, especially greens, are high in oxalates.

I don’t follow the pkd, but when I changed from keto to carnivore I had the runs for several months. It definitely took time for my digestive tract to adjust.

Edit: I also couldn’t eat that much at first, had a terrible time sleeping, and had hot flashes. Although, at 53 I don’t know how much of that was diet and how much of that was hormonal.


@VirginiaEdie Thank you, hon, for sharing and the encouragement. :heart: I agree. I’m 2 months in and still have to stick to smaller meals since the PKD requires so much fat, and I’m still surprised by the amount of oxalate dumping that goes on.

(Edith) #51

Oops! That post was for @darcygreenwald, but I’m glad you found it useful, too.

(Darcy Greenwald) #52

Renee, thank you so much for your response, which was incredibly helpful,and thank you so much for the link to the other group, which I will check out! Its such a relief to find others practicing this diet, that I can share with! I want to keep going, but sometimes I feel so discouraged, and I just want to get back to where I was, functional but of course living endlessly with the small autoimmune symptoms that flare from time to time, and make me aware that I am not progressing in a good way. So then I push on, miserably…
I used to take 30mg, which I believe is 1/2 a grain, of Armour. Dr Clemens gave me the option of just cold turkey stopping the med, or doing it gradually, and I chose gradual. So right away, after a few days of PKD, they had me cut back to 15mg, or 1/4 grain, which I have been on ever since. But now they recently told me to just cut it out I think because of my ongoing symptoms, which I am frankly scared to do, since I am already not doing very well. But its possible like you said, that many of my current symptoms are being caused by the Armour? I guess I am thinking: if I have Hashimoto’s, then doesn’t it take time to heal the gut lining, and by proxy the autoimmune aspect. Then, if I just cut out the med, won’t I have all kinds of Hashimoti’s symptoms coming back until the gut lining heals? And how long does that take? I’m quite confused about the whole process. But yes, I have the 3rd consult, and can ask questions.
You said you used to take Armour. What was it like for you, coming off of it? Are you on any meds right now, or have you stopped all of them?
Its not exactly encouraging for me to hear that you are 2 months in, and still have low energy and brain fog. I would say my mental energy comes and goes, some days better than others. But I can’t exercise at all right now, except to walk the dog–and they actually told me not to exercise until my symptoms were all gone. I certainly don’t feel the incredible energy that they talk about. I just collapse at night.
The other aspect that has been getting better is the tiny amount of food they recommend daily–in the beginning I lost so much weight and was starving all the time! They recommend only 400g (on average) of food per day, and above that many people get the diarrhea and nausea, which I have found to be true. But these days I seem to have diarrhea no matter what I eat, or what amount. And yes, I have to be very careful about meat to fat ratio, and weigh literally everything out. I’m hoping this will change once I get past the first month.
Question: where do find brain??? They require 200g minimum per week of brain or bone marrow, but the bone marrow ALWAYS gives me explosive runs, so I’m afraid to eat it! I thought I would check in with local ranchers. And have you found a way to make liver palatable? I just can’t stand, and choke it down. I thought I’d try the soup, which sounds so disgusting to me, except maybe I can gulp it quickly…I’m one of those people who would happily be a vegetarian, except it makes me sick…

They also have me checking my ketones and glucose daily, and want the glucose below 80 and the ketones above 2.
Also Virginia: thank you so much for your input. I have never heard of oxalate dumping. Do you have any good resources for reading more about this condition? I know I have had problems with oxalates, because I used to have cloudy urine ALL the time. Now its just once in a while.
And yes, I’m almost 50 and also concerned about hormone changes in the midst of all this. Sleep has actually been for the most part OK though so we’ll see.

(Darcy Greenwald) #53

They are trying to heal people of serious chronic issues, like autoimmune illness and cancer. So a big part of that is getting people into deep ketosis, which requires high amounts of fat.

(Darcy Greenwald) #54

Thanks so much for this information! I had never heard of oxalate dumping. I used to have cloudy urine all the time, although I did try and cut back on one point on high oxalate veggies. Can you point me toward more resources on this topic?

(Susan) #55

Which are the worse vegetables for being high in oxalates that we should avoid?

I want to do everything the best way too =).

(Darcy Greenwald) #56

Renee, thanks so much for all this great support and information! So great to find someone following the diet. I was on 1/2 grain (30mg) of Armour thyroid for about a decade. They cut me back to 15mg (1/4 grain) a few days after I started the PKD, and now they want me to cut it out completely. But frankly, given how miserable I already am, I’m very worried about cutting it out.
Its not exactly encouraging to hear that you still have low energy and brain fog after 2 months. Can I ask: are you still on any meds? You said you used to be on Armour, but no longer…What was it like for you getting off of it, and why originally did you? I know some people don’t do well on it, but it helped me a lot. Also, can I ask what other autoimmune issues you have? I have Hashimoto’s, and Lupus markers showing up in my bloodwork, though not much symptomatically with Lupus at this point. Maybe because I was already on a very low carb diet.
They have me measuring out exact amounts of lean protein to fat with all my meals, and trying to stay within about 400g of food amount per day. This was rough in the beginning, and I was constantly hungry, lost a fair amount of weight, which seems to be stabilizing now. I don’t want to look like I’m anorexic. But I do want to be healthy, which is why I keep going.
Also, practical question: where do you find brain??? They require at least 200g of bone marrow or brain per week, and the bone marrow gives me explosive diarrhea every time, so now I’m afraid to eat it! I thought about trying local ranchers. It also really grosses me out. I’m pretty sensitive to eggs, so I’m not sure about frying it up as a scramble. Also, any ideas for liver? I just hate it! I gag it down. Will try making a liver soup…Ugh…I’d happily be a vegetarian if I could, but that road leads no where good for me at this point in my health. I hear others love all the fat and meat, but I’m not there yet…I mainly ate fish, pork and turkey/chicken before, so all of this red meat is also very hard for me to digest.

(Edith) #57

Check out this thread. It has a lot of discussion and some good links.


@darcygreenwald :heart:

Good ol’ Hashimoto’s. Yep. I told docs I had thyroid symptoms for years but my “TSH” was normal so I was ignored. I went to a thyroid forum where others who’d been through it all told me what tests to order for myself and where to order them and gee…I had a lot of thyroid antibodies so I was finally diagnosed with Hashi’s. I like Armour thyroid a LOT better than Synthroid. I took 1 grain in the beginning and was up to almost 2 but my last thyroid doc took me off of that and put me on a compounded T3 because my Reverse T3 was way too high. I was able to wean off of my thyroid med when I went low carb but I did it slowly. AND I found that, after weaning, I needed a good iodine supplement. That really helped me feel better. I also wrestle with other auto-immune issues like psoriasis (ugh), Raynauds, and some kind of bowel problem. Docs say IBS because they don’t really know.

Remember that I’ve not had a professional consult with PaleoMedicina yet. I had no idea they required 200g of brain per week. I thought it was brains, liver, and other organ meats. I have 14oz of organ meats (mostly liver and brains) a week.

I get cow brains from a local butcher but I’m thinking of ordering lamb or pig instead simply because I have no idea what kinds of conditions the animals lived in before slaughter. Grass fed (but grain finished) is very popular around here but I wonder how many sellers are really telling the truth? As far as the taste of the cow brains I think they actually taste pretty good when they are first boiled and drained. They are warm and tender to eat at that point, not bad at all. They are fatty but not like typical beef fat trimmings or even suet. I usually boil the brains for around 6 minutes or so then drain and let them cool off just a bit. Then I divide them into portions by weight and refreeze them to add to my scrambled eggs.

Another hard thing with PKD is the limiting of spices although I totally understand the necessity of that for healing. Spices can be very helpful when trying to get things like liver down. When I was on the SAD I used to love liver and onions but that’s obviously out, lol. When doing keto I would put a dollop of Primal Kitchen mayo on the liver and that helped. Now I just basically cook the liver and measure it out as well for individual portions. Some of the folks here suggested eating it frozen so I’m going to try that next. If you come up with a fantastic way to eat it while doing PKD let me know!! :smile:

When I was on the SAD and even regular keto I ate fish, chicken and lots of casserole types of meals. My fav food was nuts. I did try to include 4oz of liver a week and one steak smothered in butter or ghee. So all this red meat is a new challenge for me too. What do you eat daily? Since you measure do you tend to stick with the same foods? When do you have your next consult?

I drink homemade bone broth so I know I get bone marrow in that. I believe PKD allows that and I’d hate to have to part with that. Hang in there!! {{hugs}}

PS: No meds at this time except my daily iodine supplement.

(Kristen Ann) #59

@ReneeRC @darcygreenwald Just wanted to say I’m following this thread and rooting for you ladies!


@kaclp Aw, Kristen, you are a sweetie! Thank you so much! :heart: