Paleolithic Ketogenic Diet

#302

I am a not active woman (and I don’t do PKD if it’s news for anyone here now) but I can’t not regularly go over 2g/kg protein (about 100g for me) and going below 1.5g/kg is borderline impossible, I might do it after a high-protein high-calorie day a few times a year. I had this on every diet and extreme low-carb and very high fat doesn’t help enough, I still overeat protein, my average is best on carnivore though. But I never experienced any problem and I can’t change this anyway. But now that I can eat way more fat even on carnivore if I want, I will try out 1g/kg protein and twice as much fat, it’s still extremely low calorie so I probably need to keep adding fat until I can, it will be interesting. I can’t do it in the next 1.5 weeks but I will try it later if I don’t forget it (it’s hard not to forget things very foreign to me). It will require some planning and maybe trying out different things.
I am here commenting since long, I should at least try your fat:protein ratio for longer than one day even if I don’t want to do the other restrictions without any good reason.

I consider 1-2g/kg ‘adequate’ and over 2 ‘high’ but probably very few people need significantly more than 1.5, I am pleased with that amount for my not very active self on keto, I just can’t stay that low all the time.

And my protein intake is nothing compared to some carnivores who eat lots of meat… I don’t eat much even if I only eat meat, not like I have much experience about that. Sorry, this topic is so interesting, just like a carnivore one where I commented a lot while I still did almost vegetarian keto (and soon tried hard to stop it), getting meat is difficult for me. And I couldn’t get brains. Or blood and that’s a wonderful, pretty (while raw and fresh) and tasty substance. I loved it as a kid and it’s still good just hard to get except in sausages.

I try to be scarce in the near future but best wishes for you all!

(mole person) #303

@Shinita When you get your fats, while eating carnivore, what is your fat source? Meat fat is extremely satiating, when people say they need mostly protein it’s frequently the case that they are using a non-meat fat source or simply not getting enough meat fat.

(Edith) #304

I am going to try upping my fat percentage when I can get a hold of grass fed beef fat. I believe you are correct with meat fat being more satiating. On keto I used coconut, olive, and avocado oils along with lard and bacon fat. I never found keto as satisfying as carnivore and I really needed my 3MAD. On carnivore I usually only have 2MAD. It could be the lack of oils and more beef fat that I’m finding more satisfying.

#305

I like very fatty meat and I eat eggs and some (very little) cheese too. Eggs are very satiating and as fatty as the meat I prefer and usually buy. This is the first time I have enough meat for a while, I try a very meat-based carnivore now but without eating really high protein. My fav snack is lard but I try to keep it low, it doesn’t always happen, I love that stuff. But I am used to minimizing my added fat as it never was satiating to me and I easily overeat fat that way. I prefer to fry my eggs together with smoked fatty pork so I don’t need to add extra fat.
One day I might post a picture of my ham, maybe you folks can say its fat content, it’s surely very high, waaay over the pork chuck I buy… I didn’t notice fat from that would be better than other fats but it’s not like I eat a lot of smoked ham on any day. The mutton ribs were extremely fatty but they left the meat during baking and I have lots of tallow since. So it’s pretty difficult for me to eat very, very fatty meat, I prefer them fried.
When I ate only fatty beef (maybe 1:1 fat:protein ratio? I usually buy ribs) with minimal added fat, I needed about 100g protein to get satiated (it was a very long single meal, kind of, I played with beef for the first time and it took time). It’s just one day but I never could get satiated with little protein. I never did very high-fat carnivore for more than one day so I don’t know what would happen then, that’s why I want to experiment.
I can do it soon. The fatty ham is smoked and I don’t want to depend on it too much even for some days (and I would need to eat rendered fat from it anyway) but if I use beef ribs (I have lots of it now :D), that’s not fatty enough, I need to add other fat. Well the fat part of the ham is a delicious version of white bacon (no way I buy normal white bacon but this ham is very tasty. I prefer it with the meaty part, though) but if I fry it, it will be mostly rendered fat… But I can handle it in its original form, I have a good recipe (my Mom made tiny miracles like chicken breast or white bacon edible for me. I seriously dislike both but her tricks were powerful)… Okay, it’s a plan.

People say fat in general is satiating too and not for me, some people can overeat fatty meat too so I can imagine it won’t work but I need to try.
Edith wrote about number of meals, I heard that from multiple people and it makes sense but that’s something I do differently too (but it may change later). Carnivore is WAY more satiating to me so I have more meals as I can’t eat my usual big ones… I had OMADs and TMADs before but on carnivore, I needed 2-3 meals to get my (reduced) calories. And I ate until I could but while normally there is a lot of food between nicely satiated, completely satiated and absolutely full, they happens at the same time on carnivore. I just eat… And suddenly get a hard stop. It’s so convenient, I love not to thinking about if I should eat more…

#306

I misbehaved last night and had champagne with my Valentine!
I am hungover.
Blech.
That pate recipe is brilliant!

(Andrea) #307

I too misbehaved! Whisky and a coffee…though I didn’t have any cream of cheese so that’s something. I had a chat with my hubby about it. He does keto and fasting, usually only eating Fri, Sat and Sunday. Until a couple of weeks ago I’d done similar…well maybe more like only 3 days fasting and 4 days eating. I got to Friday and we’re at the supermarket and I have a mini-grump meltdown…I want cheese, cream, coffee…everything keto that I can’t have! Fasting during the week meant the weekend truly has been feasting time. I couldn’t help but over-eat significantly today, as well as having a dram and coffee.

Just brought it home to me how much all of this is mental. So much emotion and actions tied up with food. It’s just crazy but I see now I need to break the spell it has over me. I spent a year doing Whole 30 which, coming from veg-heavy standard American diet is bad enough, but at the time I only ate fish…it was tough as heck! Just need to get into that same mentality for PKD and give myself the chance to heal and actually see what “good” can feel like and identify what causes problems.

Anyway, just my two cents. Back to programme tomorrow.

#308

This is excellent n=1 self experimentation. Thanks for sharing the observations.

#309

I think the we have moved on from Dr. Rosedale’s pioneering work and mTOR concerns.

There are some good mTOR explainer podcasts on STEM talk. Explaining the link to insulin, and the differences between systemic and local muscle mTOR effects on health.

Prof Ben Bikman has demonstrated that nutritional ketosis is a unique physiological state when it comes to protein metabolism and dietary related hormone pathways. Was that the low carb video you watched? Or was it Zsofia Clemens?

Anyhow, higher levels of protein are more confidently recommended these days than when Dr. Rosedale was concerned about the intricacies of MTOR and, in particular, cancer risk. Choose your practitioner.

I still find it interesting that Dr. Clemens at PM still refers to physiological text book recommended protein amounts from mid 20thC nutrition research, and is yet to adapt or update the protein thinking for PKD. In terms of achieving a target glucose to ketone index, my own experience is that higher protein in the ratio reduces ketosis. I guess the basic human physiology has not changed in the past 70 - 100 years, and the PM clinical results are predicated on that GKI ratio. Clemens does treat the protein discussion as moot.

(Deborah) #310

@ReneeRC said ,No, it’s good. people who fast get blood ketones in the sixes and I’m fairly convinced that what Paleo-medicina is doing is mimicking the markers that we get when we fast

I bet that is a big part of it, plus adding in all the nutrients from the organ meats…

#311

It IS amazing! I really never considered the C O N T R O L that food has over most of us until going keto and watching folks with diabetes continue to be addicted to carbs in spite of what the carbs were doing to their health. I mean, even those of us with health issues fight that food control issue, but I must say that the carnivore (and PKD) make the fight a whole lot easier, at least for me.

(Andrea) #312

i spent a week with my father in law who is diabetic and has been for about 15 years. He’s only just started actually monitoring his sugars properly. And he notices the carbs impact a bit. When he monitored later in the day, almost always he would say his blood sugars were too low so he’d have some dessert or chocolates. Drove me mad! No telling him but it was so frustrating to watch someone slowly pickling themselves inside with diabetes.

#313

My blood glucose is still elevated from drinking champagne on the 14th Feb.

It was 3.7. Now it is 4.9, and 5.2. I am adhering to PKD, no food cheats, just the champagne.

It will be interesting to see how long it takes my blood glucose to get back on track. I am surprised that several glasses of champagne have had such a detrimental impact.

Lesson learned.

(Andrea) #314

My first bad day turned into a second. I had whisky, cream, coffee, some 90% chocolate and a bite of an omelette. This morning my joints are sorer than they have been for a couple of days. I think it’s the cream. I’m coming round to the idea that I’ve got a diary intolerance. Plus also an addiction to it too! I feel like mourning if diary is the problem. Ho hum. Time to suck it up. No more diary or alcohol for me. I can do it…I think!

(mole person) #315

I looked in my fridge this morning and saw it through the lens of my old pre keto self and it make me laugh.

The PKD fridge:

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20200217_065845.jpg4032×2268 2.74 MB

The top-left is tallow, the top-right is beef fat for eating with my steaks, then below I have a bunch of ribeye steaks, then some dried pig skin ready for frying and turning into fluffy rinds, and then at the bottom some leftover steak followed by a big pot of fatty meaty, bone broth.

What a diet, and I absolutely love it. I had the leftover steak for breakfast with some extra fat and my brain just lit up with pleasure as soon as I started contemplating the meal and that feeling continued until I had finished the last bite that I wanted and now I will want no more for about ten hours at which point I will light up all over again.

This state of affairs was the last thing that I ever expected when I started this diet. I thought I’d be bored and have difficulty eating only meat. But now my mind knows how good it all feels.

#316

Your fridge is the most beautiful fridge.

(mole person) #317

Haha…thank you @Flub. It pleases me as well. :hugs:

#318

Since I was never a meat eater other than an occasional roast or steak I thought I’d be bored too. I love it! For me, the right amount of fat is what made the difference. Love that fridge of yours, hon. :heart:

(mole person) #319

It another of those weird effects. You do keto and you are shocked at how much better your body does in so many respects without some of the foods you’ve eaten all of your life. Then you switch to carnivore and it happens all over again plus you love it plus it makes you stop thinking about food all the time and stops the cravings.

#320

Thanks for this image, I am curious about such things :smiley:
Mine is totally different, all my beef is in the freezer now and I usually keep all the fat I use in the kitchen window (the walls are super thick, there is plenty of space) where I easily reach them when cooking and anyway, I don’t live alone. But there were big changes. I doubt keto did anything to my fridge but vegetarian keto -> carnivore was quite apparent, even living with a high-carber (who handles the almost complete lack of vegetables surprisingly well).

Boring meals… It’s a strange thing on carnivore, actually, many of us find the food more exciting without the plants. It’s easy for me as I added meat and it’s exotic and exciting but others say the same and I had this before I could add a significant amount of meat as well. I just skipped most of the plants and the almost boring items became less boring. I don’t know why, I lowered variety… Maybe it has something to do with my reduced amount of food? So I needed the food more when I actually ate?

I did about 75% fat today, guys! It’s not easy to reach 80, I am even a tad afraid of fat, I so easily overeat it and I need some lower-calorie days after my epic fail last week. But I went higher as usual and only with a tiny bit added fat! I will experiment more.

#321

@Shinita You’re doing great! Do continue to experiment to find out what’s right for you right now. I say, “right now” because our bodies are always changing so some things that don’t seem beneficial now may be so later on. :+1:

I was afraid of fat for the longest time thanks to Ancel Keys and all the low fat lies that went on when I was younger. I had my fat intake down to 22% and a cholesterol score of 124, sigh. No wonder my health went out the window. When I tried to eat a higher fat ratio on regular keto I gained weight every time! On carnivore I’m not having that problem at all.