And what is creating the above? Is it the fat under the skin (middle-age-spread, spare tyre)? Is it the fat inside of your abdomen (beer belly, pot belly…?)
Trying to identify a starting point. The anatomy of the ‘swelling’ will dictate the discussion path.
Mine is hard as hell. Like a basket ball. I do believe in my case it is “non-alcoholic fatty liver disease”
OK. Intra-abdominal swelling. 
You have fasting in your protocol. Are there changes between your start of fast belly and end of fast belly?
I think you mentioned you had liver tests done, Did you have abdominal imaging done? Ultrasound, MRI, CT scan or DEXA?
For a one day fast once a week, no. I am currently on day three of an extended fast. My happy belly has started to get a tiny bit softer.
No fancy tests. Can’t afford them. I used the finger jab test – it’s free. Hard gut is a no-no. I am consulting with an OMD (Oriental Medical Doctor). If he tells me to go get some tests, I will just have to go in debt. He is probably going to tell me I have liver fire or wind. And that is some serious stuff.
Tests that are not only fancy, but useful. OK, so there is a financial constraint. It also diagnoses a deficiency; a deficiency of information. A deficiency of information may lead to an over reliance of presumption.
Oriental Medical Doctors can be good. When he does a physical examination, including the poke test, does he palpate around your “belly” to try and identify swellings or pain areas?
The reason I ask this is that fatty liver disease can be associated with an ache in the upper (your) right side anterior (front of body) quadrant of the abdomen. That ache can also be associated with right kidney pain, but that is manifest more as back pain. An ache in that area can also be associated with gall bladder disease. Both kidney and gall bladder disease can be the result of, or result in, stone formation.
If you have general swelling, but no pain, even when poked, you may have oedema (not painful), fluid accumulation, inflammation of the omentum, or other structures that are, or surround, the internal organs.
I use anatomical pictures like this to help describe pain areas, and swelling.
I’m questioning this way as you mentioned liver disease.
Other than the annoyance of being difficult to put my sox and shoes on, there is not pain.
Years ago when I had a physical by on full OMD (PHd), you could not tell it apart from an allopathic physical. Well, until he pulled out the pins.
Right now, the OMD I am consulting with is over the phone. He is looking over the symtoms I sent him and the TCM studies on non-alcoholic liver disease I sent him. When he gets back with me in a few days, I will know what tests he wants.
Pain is a great motivator. Lack of pain may be a procrastinator.
If it’s not too personal, how are your bowel movements, especially when your gut is hard? Do you have burping and farting?
I think we can rule out pregnancy, but I thought it an idea to check with you.
I like acupuncture as a relaxation technique and for easing joint soreness and stiffness.
This discussion is building an interesting picture. I’m still smiling about the “poke test”.
The forum robot is telling me off because I am only replying to you in this topic.
Maybe someone else can chime in, if they see where my path of questions is leading.
Thank you, but it’s not too many carbs. I have been on clean keto for over three years (no cheating), and for over the last year, I have been eating zero to <5 incidental carbs/day. My food is confined to beef, pork, minimal chicken, ghee, bacon, bacon grease, some mayo, eggs, cheese - that’s pretty much it, and I don’t tire of it and still find it delicious. I think to reach satiety, I need to eat a mid-day “meal” instead of grazing on keto food several times an afternoon. This week, I am eating an 8 oz. round steak for my mid-day meal with a little ghee on top. It holds me until dinner, unlike the 2-3 pieces of keto pizza (made with eggs and cheese only), I would have, followed later by a few pieces of bacon, maybe another piece of pizza. I feel good; we’ll see if it shows on the scale.
The problem with glycemic Load is the inaccuracies caused by Area under the curve.
The ONE thing we should measure is the INSULIN Response (total) as AUC (Area Under the curve).
Here is the problem with Glycemic load in a nutshell. You eat something with carbs. Your body responds with a dose of INSULIN. That dose is dependent on the individual! That dose is far more important than the resulting blood sugar levels after eating (Glycemic Index or GL).
So, the numbers are created by testing on health 20 yr old males w/o diabetes. 2 Obvious problems. If they are not IR, then their Insulin Response is low, and their muscles easily push the glucose into the muscles/tissues. And the result looks great on paper.
Now take a 500lb person who is severely IR. Give them a MEAL of that food, and measure their Insulin Response. Even if they are able to STORE that glucose, they could be producing 5x the amount of Insulin to do it. That’s not good, nor is it an equivalent situation.
In my case, one of my FAILED Glucose Tolerance Tests, with Insulin measured. Show my Glucose shot over 200, and my Insulin Produced was 2x the Normal for the test. My Glucose came back down pretty quickly (making it look like I passed the test). But the reality was that I needed twice the insulin as a healthy person to do it.
It’s a HORRIBLE tool because measuring Insulin is so much harder. And because they are basing BOTH the Glycemic Index and Load on HEALTHY YOUNG people.
Learn to measure your GKI. That number (USA: Glucose/18/Ketones), gives you an approximation of your insulin resistance, and how much insulin you might be producing.
I don’t care who have what, it’s a daily experience of people that carby meals are very satiating. That’s it.
No, carbs don’t make people happy or they must be some odd people.
Food never made me happy. And carbs don’t make my SO happy either (he is the one who eats some carbs and perfectly satiated for 8-9 hours while doing physical work).
Besides, happiness and satiation feels extremely different.
Okay, I don’t even believe the existence of happiness. Joy, that’s okay. I consider sour stuff, fat and protein WAY better at giving it than carbs but some carbs are nice too… At least temporarily. I am an expert at my own joy, being in hedonist mode very nearly all the time (my inner hedonist self runs the show) and eating carbs is a not hedonistic things for me, usually.
We humans have all these very differently. There are more extreme things. Some people can’t get satiated without a bunch of fruit, they say. That’s odd. Others can’t sleep without some coffeein before bed. It’s hard to make generally true statements.
But many people show they get satiated by carbs… It’s not something very special.
My SO has problems with very low-fat food as they can’t satiate him, triggering overeating. He needs carbs for proper satiation. (Not each and every time, he has low-carb breakfasts sometimes. That has carbs too, more than what a ketoer uses. But a whole low-fat day, he just can’t try it, he feels hungry then overstuffed and unwell. Yeah, carbs make him happier in that sense but more like less unhappy.)
I had no carbs withdrawal, I felt free and way happier when I cut out grains, lactose, sugar, dry legumes and potatoes at the same time. It was super easy! (If we don’t talk about the few times per year when something still managed to be tempting.) And I didn’t even have meat so it wasn’t so easy in the beginning (I avoided meat for maybe 8 years to come, even in the first quite a few years of on/off keto). But it was still very great, my body responded very well to the lower-carb so I knew I won’t ever go back (just for tiny visits, occasionally). Shopping was the best, I stopped seeing the banned items as food and I could walk and see all the stuff I don’t need! Really, it was amazing, I won’t ever remember that.
I got a bit worse 5 years later but that was long ago too.
I only had real problems when I tried to quit coffee. That just was impossible for soooo long.
Fat bombs are banned in my life. I overeat fat despite doing my best to keep it at my somewhat comfortable minimum since maybe 11 years. It’s not fun but carnivore and OMAD helps. And I can afford a cute amount as I don’t want to overdo protein either. I use close to zero added fat as I can’t afford it.
Oh and added fat doesn’t satiate me, just balloons my calories. That’s why I avoid it.
But I liked my peanut fat bombs (peanut was my addiction but carnivore shut it down without problems. Only a few things exist carnivore couldn’t solve: 1. my coffee addiction 2. my overeating tendencies but it helped some 3. fasting. the less carbs I eat, the harder fasting becomes due to smaller meals but I am mostly over that, I hope). I made 16 and ate them all in the end of an already too big meal… So I banned them quickly. If I can’t lose fat ever, at least I want avoid overeating. Wasteful and a burden. Costly too. I dislike overeating, it just happens sometimes even if I try to do everything right.
I tried so many things… Some fatty protein in big amounts, THAT helps when hungry (and not after a bigger meal). Nothing else.
Nuts are bad at satiating many of us too. There is many reasons I like carnivore. Not like every meat satiates me well… Most dairy should be avoided too… Won’t happen so I just minimize those…
I am a VERY hard case. I probably seriously overeate (very, very, very high-fat) all my life before I went low-carb. And I don’t lose my abilities. And it’s not “I can eat 4000 kcal if I want”, it’s “I try to eat right but I just can’t keep myself from eating a ton sometimes”. I do effort, it’s just in vain (oh no, it’s a smaller overeating than without effort. though I am not sure anymore).
Getting my body satiated isn’t easy. A pound of nicely fatty meat and 6 eggs just can’t cut it and everything else is worse for satiation so my calories go up. There are no tricks. I should do everything perfectly. But that’s tiring and there is food boredom.
So what you say is easily may be true for a ton of people. But far from everyone.
Okay so it’s only for too big deficits. Not just ANY tiny that should result in fat-loss in a healthy body.
[quote=“FrankoBear, post:109, topic:114807”]
Pain is a great motivator. Lack of pain may be a procrastinator.
If it’s not too personal, how are your bowel movements, especially when your gut is hard? Do you have burping and farting?[/quote]
Constipation and occasional running down the hall as described by liver wind/fire.
My trophy wife, ever the total funny bunny, asks me occasionally when I am due. You know what, if I get rid of this gut, I will ruin some of her fun.
Got acupuncture once. Do not know how good it worked. I laid there wondering if I was going to get an infection from the needles. I did not, but the nocebo effect …
Why spend thousand of dollars on a test when you can just poke yourself. If it is hard, then you are in trouble.
I got word back from my OMD. I will post in a few minuted. It is good stuff.
I use the Glycemid Load to determine two things:
if the plant matter has been artificially hybridized for high glycemic carbohydrates not found in nature.
as a measure of how much of it I can consume and be safe. Low Glycemic loads take a long time get sugar in to your blood stream. Sort of like time released carbs. Not instant cards as in the SAD diet. So my insulin never has to wildly kick in. Just a tiny amount.
That is misleading. This is a “closed loop control system”. Think of your cruise control on your car. Your insulin could have overshot (too much gas) before it came down to stasis. If your “Insulin-degrading enzyme” (brakes to slow you down) does not kick in sufficient time and quantity, your blood sugar will drop dangerously (motorists honking their horn and shaking their fists at you for driving too slow).
So did you overshoot or was it a significant amout. Test did not tell you.
This is why carb eater pass out. But not before climbing the walls with hunger. Did I mention “crabby” too. It is the wild swings that ruin your health.
Okay here are the result of my extended fast:
05/07: afternoon, skipped dinner and started the fast
05/08: morning Blood Glucose (BG): 107 mg/dL
05/09: morning BG: 114
05/10:
morning BG: 96
keto sticks arrived: afternoon ketones: moderate
05/11:
morning BG: 77
keto sticks arrived: morning ketones: moderate
keto sticks arrived: afternoon ketones: moderate
05/12:
morning BG: 81
morning ketones: large
Fasted ended with about 8 grams of carbs and a glycemic load of about 2
BG five hour after break-fast: 105
Got word back from my OMD. He stated:
That hard abdomen fat isn’t going to go away easily. Its made to stay as long as possible and probably won’t turn soft before it goes away. Its at this point largely hormonal (cortisol) and the body needs to be reassured that it won’t be needed and that process can take weeks or months.
This makes a ton of sense.
He recommended a custom formula of his:
Gut Buster Weight Loss formula #2
One of the interesting things in his write up is:
This is the second in the weight loss formulas. It targets the waist rather than an overall heaviness.
Chai Hu and Bai Shao (along with Yu Jin) to move the liver creating a calming effect on the entire body and emotions. Bai Shao is said in Chinese Medicine terms to “soften the liver” (which is to make no claims about its effect on Western diagnosis of liver disease).
If you read the full write up, you will notice that Chinese medicine does not treat a single organ but treats the organs as being interdependent, unlike western allopathic medicine.
I will get back and let everyone know how ti works.
That truly sucks! I adore Keto food, especially since my sense of taste has returned. I can remember tasting things I tasted as a child. I enjoy the hell out of my home cooked meals.
It is horrible that you do not enjoy your food.
Since you are Keto, you are more like wild animals that know instinctively what they need to eat. Maybe your body is telling you to switch foods? If I eat too much of a single item, I suddenly do not like it. Wait a few day and I am back to enjoying it again. This is my body telling me that it has had enough of something and it needs something else.
Have you tried grilled cheese sandwiches on cauliflower bread?
How about fried cheese?
When I say satiation, I mean when your body cuts you off and it is hard to eat of that any more. I do not mean “satisfied” or “happy”. I had too big a piece of Salmon on my breakfast. Enjoyed the hell out of it, especially with my home make tar-tar sauce, but had a difficult time swallowing the last bite.
satiation
noun
3. The state of being satiated or sated, of being full, of being at maximum capacity
I mean “maximum capacity”.
[Unsugared, uncured] bacon make me happy.
A reputable acupuncturist uses sterile-packed needles. They come individually wrapped. If this is not the case with your acupuncturist, report him or her to the authorities.
Oh know, he followed the rules. They came individually wrapped and were single use only. He even explained it to me. And used alcohol swabs on me before inserting. But the nocebo was still there. The power of suggestion and all.
Very close to my bg numbers in similar conditions
After 24 hours fasting my bg will drop to 75 units
Morning bg while on 2 meals a day is 95 units
After 150 grams serving of Greek yogurt bg is 110 units
After 48 hours of fasting, my palms and feet, arms are not as warm which I translate to lower metabolism. My body does not try to burn body fat which is not too much body fat anyway.
I think the body has a set point for fat that it will always try to keep for famine time not used even in 48 hours fasting. Trying to lose beyond that set point may have negative consequences.
What matters is the quality of life and energy level, not the weight which is I think is individual thing and not all people created equal regarding this assumed set point.
Thank you for sharing that. ‘Liver fire’ it may be. The liver is intimately involved with the digestive system, particularly with dietary fats digestion with the production of bile emulsifiers. The colour of the poo can often indicate the transit time of material through the digestive tract with yellow suggesting fast transit, 50 shades of green indicating a bit slower than yellow but still rapid, and brown being a colour indicator of more preferred transit time. The bile mixed in the material changes colour with time yellow, green, brown. That’s all interesting stuff to consider. A bit like train spotting for some.
Constipation and urgent diarrhoea are equally, and maybe more predominantly, symptoms of large intestinal disease. But we will keep liver and pancreas disease in mind, as you say, they are all connected.
Looking through your posts on diet, symptoms and opinions, my opinion is you have a form of irritable bowel disease. Further on my opinion, you may find relief or response through an elimination diet while remaining low carb. The ultimate elimination diet might be an electrolyte supported extended fast.
The OMD herbs might have greater effect if a root cause antigen is eliminated.
The gut swelling and hardness may be from gas bloating as well as edema of inflammation. The omentum and ligaments that support the gut and become swollen, thickened and engorged with inflammation in a gut hypersensitivity situation causing the hard swollen belly. We can’t tell if the liver is involved, or not, without diagnostic imaging and repeat blood and poo tests ( looking for undigested fat). But it may also be in the mix. Poo tests for occult bleeding, or preferably not, will turn investigation to or away from bowel cancer. Abdominal swelling can indicate a tumour somewhere. Probably a good thing to get ruled out.
My lay-person opinion, is that you should include large bowel problems on your diagnostic rule out list to discuss with your medical team. 
Hope this helps you. It’s just my opinion.
Thinking and working through the discussion post has sure helped me in questioning my own knowledge.
A little odd. It is the end of the day after breaking he fast and my ketone level on the pee sticks is still “large”. My tummy is still hard, but a bit softer and smaller. It does not stick out as far as before the fast.
I was wired that I only got a slight bit hungry one day, but a tummy rub got rid of it.
I do have the herbs for irritable bowel:
https://eagleherbs.com/product/modified-shen-ling-bai-zhu-san/
They are great for all kinds of tummy issues. And if does normalize out the constipation / running down the hall issues. When I first started fasting, running down the hall afterwards was typical. But not for a year or so now.
And you will notice that “Gut Buster” also goes after issues with the tummy. The OMD makes a lot of sense when he stated “the body needs to be reassured that it won’t be needed”. I do have an enormous amount of stress in my life.
