Not losing my gut!

(Todd Chester) #123

“Set point” is the reference value is a “closed loop control system” which is what you are describing. In your car’s cruise control it is the speed you set your vehicle for. You can mess with the reference point a bit with the SAD and with calorie restriction (for the calories in, calories out crowd). I do not believe mess with it is a good idea though. We are what we are.

A wise allopath once told me that one of the biggest mistakes they make in (western) medicine was trying to force everyone into the average. And you know, the Good Lord made us all in different sizes and shaped for a reason. I do believe he designed “genetic diversity” into us to save our asses.


I immensely enjhoy my food. I am a hedonist, it’s vital to me. I only accept 9-10/10 meals most of the time. I didn’t thought my comment will be such a huge misunderstanding!

But it doesn’t make me HAPPY. Happiness is something else, not just having delicious food AND even enjoying it (I can not enjoying at all super delicious food, it’s rare and odd but I just coldly notice the tastiness). That’s more… Mental/emotional? I eat the food, nice and life just continues with all its problems. Food is nice and one of my major enjoyment sources but it has its limits. I won’t forget my problems, stress don’t go away (beyond what comes from hunger :D)… Food joy does have longer term effects, this is something many many people don’t experience, it seems when talking about a minute of joy vs bad consequences. But this is limited and I can stay super unhappy, food has about nothing to do with that. Maybe a bit, it does have a very big good part that has nothing to do with food joy while eating (just getting satiated and having nutrients) and another due to the joy of eating but I never felt it would significantly raise my spirits and definitely not my happiness.

It’s probably a different terminology thing. Or not. I don’t know how food affects you.
Many people say chocolate make one happier. Well, it may be tasty but it doesn’\t do that to me. I could eat a pickle too, that is about as tasty with similar effect. (Though I prefer sourness. But sometimes like chocolate too. So it depends which is more effective but neither make me any happier. It’s just a tiny bit of nice something.)

And while I consider it best (for me) to enjoy the hell out of nearly everything, first of all from food, I understand some people consider it fuel and don’t see a problem with it. We can have so, so much joy from zillion other things. And we always get positive things from food as it gives me nutrients and make our body work, it’s plenty. It’s a tad sad but not horrible not to get any joy from it - as long as we still can eat. I can’t eat food I don’t find good or just a bite. I can eat neutral food (good but no joy at the moment… I probably wouldn’t last for many days that way) but not what I totally doesn’t want.

So yes, I enjoy my food or else I am miserable and that’s sad for a hedonist. So it always solves itself somehow.
If I had to live on something I don’t like but don’t hate, I probably will like it eventually, it’s some self-protection thing from my inner hedonist. But it’s just a hipothesis at this point, I never was forced to test it.

So I am lucky. I am sure not many people eat extremely tasty food most of the time. I usually couldn’t even eat something significantly tastier, I simply eat my best option. Not always but often enough. And I mean everything including carby food or food not in my house. Probably my hedonist self but no, I think I am just that much into pork chuck roast… :smiley: And sometimes into eggs.

But sometimes eating is boring. And I would like to be a snake and take a break… I have even more food joy than what I need. Humans need to eat awfully often. And much if you ask me when I don’t want to eat…

It isn’t true for everyone but definitely for me. More than 10 eggs a day surely does the trick and it’s odd as eggs are so versatile… I get bored of meat loads easier, at least until recently, now I am good.
But I do need variety. I have multi-course meals, I can’t just do it with 1-2 under normal circumstances.

I can’t switch foods as I eat everything I may want. But it’s a moot point anyway, my food works me well now. But I have cheesier (just one day, I don’t really want cheese normally), meatier, eggier times. Now I eat quark every day :slight_smile: Just a bit but what a difference it makes!

If nothing else helps, I fall back on my dessert pancakes but I don’t like to do it as that usually isn’t carnivore, merely keto.

  1. So after 4000 kcal per day or 2000 kcal per meal… I call that full, I think.
  2. The rare effect, usually caused by meat, stop sign. Oh that’s great unless it comes too early and I get hungry an hour later.

Before carnivore I only had the first one. I actually can eat beyond that but it’s not so pleasant so I almost never did.
It’s sooooooooooooooo easy to eat 1000 kcal more if I want. I have skills. It only takes tricks and effort on carnivore (or maybe not, I never specifically tried), I do it very easily otherwise.

So I like to stop eating when I am not hungry anymore, preferable pleased, satiated/satisfied, it’s a nice feeling… AND if I ate what I should. Sometimes I stop when a bit hungry (rare and I dislike it, of course. hunger after a meal isn’t hedonistic. it may be great well-fasted but that’s a special very soft and nice hunger), sometimes I stuff myself, wait a bit and do it again… But ideally I eat my planned food, very vaguely… And stop when it’s pleasant, it’s still not a tiny range for me, usually so it’s not that clear when to do it, sadly. Hence the planning, tracking b before as a guide. (Vague guide, I mess up every plans all the time but ideally not soooo much so it’s still useful.)

Satiation has nothing to do with happiness and little with satisfaction in my case. It’s purely “did I eat enough to feel it’s enough”.
I can eat a ton and not getting satisfaction, that’s bad but that’s why I eat very tasty food and whatever I fancy (it’s not wild, I am fine with my actual plans and supplies, to some extent) to avoid that.

That was in the past when I just was unable to leave any food… I easily leave some or even much if I don’t want it anymore, it’s great.
But I try to eat my meat at least as I started to have late night meat eatings so I suppose my body will miss it if I neglect it… And if I know I ate too little, I push too. But only if I still don’t mind it. I can’t really force myself and even subtle force is something I usually regret and I almost never regret anything I ate. (That’s not hedonistic.)

  1. The state of being satiated or sated, of being full, of being at maximum capacity

Nope. I won’t eat 2 kg of food every meal, that is insane. I couldn’t do it with my normal food either.
This is a stupid definition. Surely from someone who isn’t like me.
I almost never feel full (except with an empty stomach because of the logic of my body) and it’s great. Or IDK what full means, possible, I don’t care. I want perfect satiation, fullness isn’t so comfortable and energetic.
I had before carnivore (now I have no idea, it’s complicated and won’t think about it. oh and let’s assume I eat dense food so my stomach never reaches its maximum capacity):
hunger -> lack of hunger, still not good enough -> satiation, lowest level -> satiation, perfect -> satiation, complete. maybe fullness is here, maybe later -> too full -> impossible to eat more (without my inner hedonist committing harakiri first. but it loves to live so nope, it makes me stop).
Between perfect satiation and impossible to eat more there may be thousands of calories.
If I use too low-cal food/drink, I may reach stomach full capacity at any state, even at the first one when I am hungry. Not. Fun. I only remember 2 cases but it was horrible to wait for 10 minutes to eat something more, my hunger was too serious (one was after fat adaptation, doesn’t matter, I still can’t handle hunger when I am not well-fasted).

I got carried away again I fear. But these are lovely topics for me…

I wish to leave the topic for serious and more useful discussions.

(Kirk Wolak) #125

In one of my tests, my glucose dropped to like 35. I got a headache. I was almost 6.0 for ketones. I also downed that bottle in one big hit. (I used to be able to down a 1L bottle of real coke. Just open my throat and pour it in… LOL how stupid was I).

On this test it did NOT push my glucose too low. ON the previous, the lab called me 2 days later to make sure the patient was okay. LOL.

I said all of this to say. DO NOT TRUST Glycemic Load or Glycemic Index.
If you are struggling to lose weight. You need FEWER CARBS.

Go follow Dr. Boz, or Dr. Berry on YouTube. The single best thing is to measure ketones.
In the beginning your body will make ketones. As you adapt, your body wastes fewer ketones, and your weight loss stalls. You have to STRESS this relationship a bit. With IF, Fasting, Lower Carbs.

Read this article: you might use Glycemic Index to get an idea. But Bart Kay produced a 5 minute video where he explains that they take the average. And the results could vary as much as DOUBLE. You must test you!

1-3 months of testing your glucose/ketones with a good meter should tell you EVERYTHING you need to know… The sticks, while great for beginners are INNACURATE as well. My buddy always had DARK PURPLE. Later we found out he was chronically dehydrated! LOL (Apparently drinking 6 cups of black coffee has his only daily liquids…)

Finally, your Morning Glucose, the goal should be 80s
Also, as you will read in the article, I cannot get into 0.5 ketosis with more than 5g/day of carbs.
I see you having 8g in a meal, and I Cringe. I would love to see if that STOPS your ketosis. And for how long. (Blood, not urine. Urine is an average over time, blood is a spot measurement and reacts much quicker to insulin)

Levers of Power

I hope this helps. We have to be our own doctors/scientists… We are all here to help.

(Todd Chester) #126

If you think I am ignoring your wisdom on Glycemic load, I am not. I think you are mistaking the way I use the numbers.

The Glycemic Load tells me what to stay away from. But I do not go on GL alone. I also watch carbs. (I do not watch fiber.) I some times wonder if those numbers are accurate. (I had the devils time trying ot figure out if the numbers were for the entire artichoke or just the edible part.) GL alone would be foolish. A cup of macadamia nuts has a GL of 0 but carbs are 18g. So I only eat 1/4 cup, if that. I can not eat unlimited amount of carbs just because the GL is low. I pick low GL foods, then count the carbs. I stay away from high GL foods, even if I can cut the amounts down enough to squeak the carbs in. So no oat meal for me in any quantity! This is how I avoid the spikes

I do not think I will ever be able to start a morning in the 80’s. It is what it is.

Keep in mind that my pancreas has been damaged. And I have been successful in triggering autophagy and have lost weight everywhere except the gut. As the doctor said, the gut will hold onto hard fat until it is absolute convinced it is no longer needed and it is hormonal (cortisol). So I have to come up with a way to handle the constant stress I am under, in addition to keeping my carbs down.

I have been suspicious of keto sticks for a while. I can get a low reading and smell it on myself. Last night I got really sick and barfed my brains out. Lost about a quart of water or so. Got the highest reading on the stick. This morning my BG was 106 mg/dL and the pee stick is again on the highest reading. I am not dehydrated (I get dry mouth pretty easy, my upper lungs start to smart, and my pee gets dark when I do). 105 was my postprandial from yesterday. My morning readings are the exactly the same as my before bed readings.

What is your favorite way to measure keytones?

Oh good news. I can get my sox on easily now.

(Todd Chester) #127

I guess my vocabulary is smaller than yours. To me, “enjoy” and "happy " are the same thing.

Do you have a loved one you can share meals with?

(Kirk Wolak) #128

Ketones… Keto-Mojo. Great Company. Great Product. Cheap enough to use.
And please read through those articles. I understand you explained how you use the GL, GI.

My point is simply that it is BAD science, and following it only helps those DEEP into problems, or those that have High Carb Tolerances. I don’t.

As for your morning Glucose. After a 5 day fast. It will be lower. How low? It depends on how unhealthy you are. I explained in that Levers of Power post that for me, 2 days of fasting, with a lot of walking works wonders.

Like you… STRESS is a HUGE factor for me. I can swing my glucose 30-50 points with stress!
While FASTING. I can get so focused on Programming/Problem Solving that I will produce a high enough glucose level to trigger an insulin response! LOL (I have to WALK IT OFF)… Fight or Flight. I want EITHER, but not sitting there, working through it mentally.

Also, say 6pm Rolls around. I can test my FASTED glucose at 105. Brain is working Fine. 30 minutes after sitting on the couch and just relaxing… My glucose is 85. The DEMAND for glucose by my brain is down.

Science. You want to find the consistent measurable way of tracking your numbers. I believe the KetoMojo, which Calculates your GKI for you these days is it. between 6 and 3 is maintenance mode. 3 and below is Weight loss, beneficial mode. Below 1.0 is DEEP Healing and Autophagy Mode. Dr. Boz recommends fasting EVERY week (when you are ready), for as many days as it takes to get to about the 2.0 level. (She uses a simpler Dr. Boz ratio)…

In the end. I would recommend trying 30-60 days of Carnivore with Water and Salt. No coffee, seasoning and pepper. As a PERSONAL CHALLENGE. But also track your morning numbers.

Finally, pay attention to your last meal. I know that the later I eat, the higher my morning glucose. I also have this 2:30am - 3:30am WIDE AWAKE things. Wearing a CGM has taught me that my Glucose level goes REALLY low (sub 50), and then SPIKES up to normal by the time I wake up. Using a KetoMojo, I always saw Normal-High Glucose levels. Now I know it was a Cortisol Push as my body likely panicked that my glucose was too low.

We are complicated machines. Really complicated. Consistent measurements, and inputs are important. Lookup Nutrition with Judy (Judy Cho). I’ve met her as well… Great person, totally believes in a “Carnivore Cure” approach, but looks at you holistically.

I am curious to hear about your progress. I can promise you… Going carnivore will likely help.
Especially if you have inflammation. it means you are eating less than OPTIMAL foods. For example, when you eat a POISON, your body will actually produce extra mucus, to buffer your system from absorbing too much. That runny nose when you eat peppers is a WARNING SIGN… IMO…

I wish you luck. You should be able to lose the gut. Especially if you get close to ZERO carbs for a while. One question. Is your fat BELOW your stomach muscles or the flabby stuff that laps over your belt? (a tight ROUND belly is visceral fat. It’s the dangerous fat from a Fatty Liver, Fatty Pancreas). Whereas Dunlap Fat (Your belly DONE LAP over your belt) is subcutaneous fat. Fasting removes both of them. But it removes the bad visceral fat first!


Kirk Out!

(Todd Chester) #129

Yup. Mine is the bad one.

Is this the ketone meter you where referring?

(Kirk Wolak) #130

That’s the one. I love mine.

Honestly, the best news about your belly is what Dr. Cywes Says:
72hrs of fasting can reduce your liver size enough that they don’t have to pay someone EXTRA to be in a bariatric surgery room, just holding the oversized liver out of the way for the doctor to work!

Also, change things up over time. Just diet will work… But add a 4hr Body/Dr Ben Bochiccio/Body By Science based Slow Slow Routine. Best 1hr/wk lifting routine I believe you will find. (You can start with 2x weekly, until your body needs a full week to recover). And you can get the routine down to 30-35 minutes. One SET per muscle. Great Stuff…

Building muscle will increase your metabolism.

Good Luck!

(Todd Chester) #131

I noticed that it uses separate test strips for glucose and keytones. I have found in my multiple tests of test strips and glucose meters that mixing reagents from the strips gives bizarre readings. So I had to prick separate fingers to get anything that did not come from outer space. If I remember correctly I got some reading in the 40’s and some in the 400’s.

With this meter, have you noticed an issue with reagent mixing between the glucose strips and the keytone strips, or do you prick separate fingers?

Also, since my glucose always goes up the first day of my fast and down the second, do you think I should extend my weekly one day fast to two days (in a row)?

(Kirk Wolak) #132

OMG… Never heard of those issues, never seen them with the Mojo Device.

Each strip is individual. There is no touching anything. It uses Capillary Action.
I do: Single Prick, read Ketones, WIPE HARD, Press (wiping hard prevents the insta clotting).
With the second drop, ready, I wait for my Ketone #, and swap the strip to the Glucose Strip.

Then I touch the tip to the blood bubble… And then it pulls it in, and a few seconds later, I have my glucose reading. With the new meter, I don’t think I have EVER screwed one up. (The old meter had a deceptive beep… Early. That meant: Hey, I woke up. BUT DONT PUT BOOD IN. I put blood in on that beep a bunch of times, LOL).

About glucose testing and fasting more. Until your A1C is down to the 4.x level, I recommend fasting a couple of days a week, in a row. I went 7 months eating MWF and fasting the rest. My A1C plummeted to 4.5…

My advice for now is. Pay attention to things. How did you sleep, etc? And your readings.
I find a bad nights sleep and my glucose reading sucks, and morning ketones are 0.2 - 0.3

SLOWLY extend your fasting to 2 days. Master it. You’ve got the rest of your life to get it perfect. For now, get comfortable with testing/understanding…