New(ish) and Now Struggling

(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #102

BTW @Chris_W.
I live in the town where MST 3000 was born. Just sayin’.

(Crow T. Robot) #103

In America, I’d say that makes you royalty. :wink:

(Richard Morris) #104

That’s all any of us can do. Come to an accommodation with our own biomechanical sensors to adequately fuel ourselves. For most people, get carbs out of the diet and satiation becomes a reliable signal. Apparently for you that is not working. There is a complex chain of biomechanical and psychological control points involved in that process of informing you when to eat and when to stop, any of which could just be radically different in your specific experience.

There is a theory that when we lack a specific stasis signal for an essential micro-nutrient, we reuse an energy signal. In other words our bodies know we are lacking an essential nutrient say vitamin C, then our bodies use general hunger to get us to eat more things hoping that enough of them will have vitamins C in them.

I’m not convinced that works as a general principle as that theory can be easily falsified if there were observed a common population of people who were chronically undernourishing themselves with specific micronutrients who were able to maintain sub-overweight levels of body fat. For example vegans that chronically under consume vitamin B12 or Iron or Choline yet don’t all become cookie monsters.

But in your circumstance I would follow the precautionary principle and try to build micro-nutrient dense meals and see if that changes your satiation signalling.

The bottom line is you are an individual snowflake, and need to find a protocol that works for you - as we all are and have to do.

(Larry Lustig) #105

How about cheese? Or quick keto-friendly chocolate mousse? Or macadamia nuts (admittedly, a bit expensive)? Peanut butter?

#106

What I actually said was that until you are eating when hungry and reaching those kinds of calories there is nothing else we can help you with. As long as you are refusing to eat when hungry and striving to hit a specific calorie deficit there’s very little else anyone can look into as being the causes of your hunger. It’s an adaptation thing. In your case it’s the body asking for calories (commonly known as carb addiction).

If there is something else going on you would still need to be eating when hungry and eating adequately in order for anyone to diagnose the situation.

I’m not saying 2700 your ideal target. I’m saying that’s it’s a good neutral point and anything can happen during adaptation. In your case you are hungry. Happened to me too. Happened to plenty of others. It’s not permanent. It’s just until your body realises that the sugar simply ain’t coming.

I’m glad you’re going out to listen to the podcasts about adaptation. Also listen to the one about fat. It’s awesome.

It’s not so hard to listen to all the podcasts. Are you in this for health reasons?

(Larry Lustig) #107

I’m virtually certain that I was eating at least that much during my fat adaption period. Now, fat adapted, I basically eat once a day.

#108

Here’s some more questions, alluding to some other experiments you can look into when you are eating when hungry.

Have you tried a breakfast that doesn’t involve bacon or pork? Or even involve meat? Until you experiment with your meal how can anyone possibly know what causes your wooziness. Do you get woozy when pig-free? Do you get woozy when dairy-free?

Are you using ketostix (cheap at any chemist) to measure that you are actually in ketosis? Try before during and after your meal for a couple of breakfasts.

What foods are you eating that might have hidden carbs in them? That cream you’re eating… is it sugary? Is your bacon sweetened, some is.

What are your drinks sweetened with? Have you tried a different sweetener?

What supplements are you ingesting? Is your magnesium supplement sweetened with glucose? Look at the packet.

How stressed are you? Stress causes the body to turn excess protein into glucose which can trigger your hunger. Your calorie restriction attitude would exacerbate this. Have you tried lowering your protein intake yet? Have you let go of the 30g per meal dogma? I have 45g protein a day and I’m ripped. Protein intake varys on the individual, between .5g per kilo to 1.50g per kilo of lean bodyweight. You can afford to lower it.

Do you have other confounding factors you haven’t mentioned? A removed gall-bladder? Other surgeries? Underlying diseases? Alcohol?

Here’s the simple version of everything and AWESOME advice I’ve seen you be given for free:

  • eat less protein, eat more fat
  • stop targeting a total calorie deficit
  • eat when hungry
  • learn some new recipes (stop eating bacon for a bit)
  • eat fat bombs to satiety between meals

Since there’s actually no harm in you trying out this advice for a week… why not just suck it up and do it for a week. All of it.

If you want convincing then listen to the keto dude podcasts. They’re fun, they’re short, they are free.

The important factor for me is that if you reject the diet it’s a personal choice. It’s got nothing to do with the advice, the price, the time or the diet failing you. Everyone can adapt to ketone fueling. I’ve never heard of a person that doesn’t have this mechanism. It’s simply not possible as you would have had to have been hospitalised a long time ago for the inability to process fat.

So, let’s explore these other questions when you’ve tried the advice and listened to the ketodude podcasts.

Here’s your list of repeating excuses:

  1. It’s too much in fat, calories, time, and money
  2. It’s not enough protein
  3. It doesn’t fit advice you read on reddit
  4. It doesn’t fit your calorie deficit target
  5. You don’t know what to eat
  6. It’s too complex and hard to learn

Here’s the solutions:

  1. Start a thread on doing it cheaper in time and money. Also eat less and cheaper proteins. It’s protein that is expensive, not fat.
  2. It’s not too much fat. Fat is the most filling food you can eat. If you’re only eating fat and you’re still hungry, drink some water, and keep eating fat. Your body will get the message eventually.
  3. Protein is a danger to you while adapting. Too much and you’ll be hungry. Err on the side of too little while adapting.
  4. Since you’re hungry and woozy based on the reddit advice, try following ketoers here instead.
  5. Lose the bloody target
  6. Take the time to look up some recipes (the only food you cannot meal replace on keto is fruit) There is keto icecream, bread, pizza, pasta, noodles, chips, rice and more
  7. It’s you making it complex. People are giving you truly fantastic advice in short statements and you have been throwing it in their faces saying “I’m not convinced.” So, make a choice. Do you want to follow the easy advice or do you want to make it complex? But it’s your choice.
(Martin Arnold) #109

I’ve asked all across the internet and noone has any answer to this. What would you have me do? I can’t go to my GP about this because they don’t understand or even like low carb diets. Noone can explain this issue and noone has any answers. I’ve given this diet 6 weeks and it’s making me ill. What would you do? It’s easy to point and sneer isn’t it! Name one suggestion I have rejected without trying?

(Martin Arnold) #110

I have tried a couple of times to eat breakfast without meat. But i couldn’t last. I tried avocado with brazil nuts and a little bit of coconut oil, but not long after i felt worse. If i don’t feel full from a meal, i feel worse. I need to eat enough, and this wasn’t it.

the meats i have eaten since starting this have always been pork, this is because it has fat and protein. I don’t like beef an chicken is too lean.

The post breakfast sensation happens regardless. I have noticed no difference.

I have used ketostix and it registers the presence of ketones.

The food I’m eating has no hidden carbs that I can find. The cream has a small amount of carbs (1.2g/100ml). It is milk based.

I don’t drink anything but water and I don’t use sweeteners.

I take chelated magnesium; the better options are way out o fmy price range. If it has glucose in it, I have no idea.The label says no added sugar, no sweeteners,

I suffer from anxiety, so there is stress. I have no idea of how that plays out in my body for real. But I did not suffer from hunger cravings during the first two weeks so I don’t think that’s the deciding factor.

I’ve tried a few days on lower protein, and it didn’t make a difference. I’ve no idea if 30g meal is dogma. What you have to understand is that those who gave me that advice were as sincere as you, and as convinced of their position as you are. I have no idea if 30g is real, or if the macro i got from the reddit calculator for protein, 104g a day, is too high or whatever. Do you see the problem?

There are no other medical conditions I’m aware of.

I’m not criticising people for giving advice. You have to understand my position: I’m asking about an issue that nobody has an answer for from a community that has a different opinion for every member. Oftentimes this information, duobtless offered sincerely, is contradictory. The 30g proten value; the intake for every macronutrient etc. I get one person saying eat more, and I’ve had equally sincere people saying the opposite. How do I know which is correct - if any? I don’t even know if this isn’t a medical issue.

I do eat when hungry, then when i’m not hungry I don’t. The problem is that i don’t remain sated, and I wake up at night cripplingly hungry - for the first time in my life. Nobody else seems to have had this experience,. It’ snot like keto flu, which, when people present with it, they can easily be remedied. If i go to my DR she will say that low cabr is starvation and to eat ‘sensibly’.

More later

#111

I am definitely not the right person to ask when it comes to calories! I think they are a load of bollocks! I religiously disregard them. Not dead yet.

#112

Just injecting this since I haven’t seen it introduced as a factor in satiety.

In this YouTube video, @Marty_Kendall shows a slide that says, “Your ability to produce endogenous ketones impacts appetite and your ability to go longer between meals”. I don’t see where he substantiates that objectively, but from personal experience it makes sense since by definition a ketogenic diet is all about using ketones and fatty acids as a primary fuel source and this is not something that occurs while eating a SAD/SWD.

When adapting to a ketogenic diet, the body is transitioning from burning glucose (glycolysis) to burning fat (lipolysis) while depleting liver glycogen and generating ketones (ketogenesis). However, just producing ketones doesn’t mean that all the cells in the body have adapted to using them and according to Phinney and Volek, keto-adaptation may take 2 to 6 weeks for initial adaptation, but seems to continue for up to a year.

When lowering carbs below anyone’s personal threshold, usually recommended here to be below 20 grams because nearly everyone begins to keto-adapt at the level, means that ketones may be present in the urine, blood, or breath, but the cells in the body may be able to use them at different levels while adaptation is taking place. This could easily result in confusing signals coming from the body where part is adapted and part is not.

image.jpg786×363 64.8 KB

#113

I’m really sick of your whining about keto. I think you’re a troll. You’re wasting their time over at paleo reddit too. Do the work man. Fine tune your diet yourself. Stop spreading lies about our advice. Our advice fits together perfectly. You have a team of well-meaning people here and you’re wasting everyone’s time without thanks for anyone’s effort, whether it helps you or not.

You don’t need anyone’s permission to quit keto. Please quit. Come back when you’re willing to learn about your personal dietary quirks without complaining about everyone’s attempts to help you. If you can get your blood sugar under control with paleo then go for it! Go do paleo. Give it a really good shot. Follow the books and the advice. Do it right.

Fair enough. Keto is a stupid diet. It doesn’t work and it leaves you hungry all the time. No one can eat that much fat, and even if you do you’re just hungry again in no time.

Ooops. I meant Rubbish. I’ve had it. I already told you about 5 times. So did 3 or 4 other people. You make up so much rubbish about us. I binge ate a whole tray of fat-bombs several times. I told you so. Other’s had similar stories. It’s all in the thread above. I don’t think you read everything people write to you.

There’s no problem you are having with keto that doesn’t have a solution. Trying to help you through the noise of your whining about how much we all suck is really hard.

#114

@Martin_Arnold

OK so I have come back to this thread because I may have heard it was sliding sideways a bit :wink:

As I am reasonably notorious for being a bit of a softie I thought I would try and interject a cuddle and see what happens.

People get frustrated with posts like this. Why? Because they know how amazing keto is, they see what a massive difference it has made to them and people they know. Most have also put in a mammoth amount of effort re reading and watching videos, listening to podcasts, etc. They love it. They love to soak up all this amazing knowledge that they feel has been kept from them for so many years. Sounds a bit nuts? Yeah a bit, we all go a bit crazy on the good stuff!

Anxiety? I think it highly likely that this new (BIG) change has thrown you out of whack. Mental health stability can be a very delicate balance and you start throwing things out of whack and you are likely to get hit with a tidal wave of not necessarily pleasant emotions and feelings. Actually, this is a good sign. Keto has this very good tendency of helping with all things brain. BUT it can take some time. It is THE biggest thing for me - the impact on my brain and depression. There are some supplements also that you could potentially explore but that is for another chat. Are you on any meds? Do you have any other health issues that could be impacting how you feel? Have you had any blood tests recently for all the usual things like blood sugar, triglycerides, blah, blah? It would be good to know how you are faring inside? If you haven’t and you plan on getting some, come back for a recommended list of tests to ask for. And ALWAYS get a copy of the results. I know they can be really bad for sharing info in the UK.

Re hunger. Please remember that this is early days. A LOT of people have raging hunger when they start out and until they are fat adapted. If you were a woman you would be likely able to look forward to that deep joy every single month so count your blessings! My advice is to just give in to it for now pretty much. I suspect that it is as much a mental thing as a physical. So try this… eat as big a meal as you want at meal times to properly satiate you (totally disregarding calories - just forget those little bastards for now). Keep a journal as you go. How long before you get hungry? How hungry? Analyse the hunger - real or head hunger? Try distraction - drink something (often more thirst than hunger). Sparkling water can help fill you up. Distract yourself by doing something that will totally take up your brain and force you to stop thinking about food - even for just a few minutes. Are you still genuinely hungry? OK so now either eat a snack or make yourself wait to your next meal. If you do the latter consider eating a larger meal. See what happens. Repeat.

Try neat fat - usually very good for reducing hunger pangs. A tablespoon of coconut oil. A bit vomitworthy? Melt it, neck it and chase with a cup of tea. That is what I do. Boom! Pro tip - fat (especially MCT) is going to soothe your brain and I think you need that.

Make a deal with yourself that you are going to not stress about this but simply respond to how your body feels. OK so you need to keep under with the carbs and moderate with the protein but I am guessing you have those amounts down by now without the need to plug into a tracker? I dare you to switch to a journal for a couple of weeks and play this out by feel. NO tracking. Eat and record what you ate, how you feel, how you responded and on. I suspect that your anxiety is dialling in and making this all a whole lot worse. If your stress levels are up and your sleep is off that is going to have a MASSIVE impact. You are putting the blame on the food BUT I think the ‘blame’ as it were lies elsewhere - probably in your head. I am not being horrible, I am talking from my own experience here. You may of course be completely different but I felt like I needed to jump in and offer another approach. You know where I am, you know who I am and how to tag me. Over to you. xxx

(Martin Arnold) #115

Ok, let’s not turn this into a slagging match. I’m not suggesting that anyone’s way of eating is stupid, and I have never insulted anyone for eating how they do. Whatever works for you is fine.

So i’ve listened to the first podcast, as recommended. They don’t mention the issue I’m having at all. However the guy who says he’s been on the diet, at that time, for 3 weeks, says he eats a bulletproof coffee for breakfast that lasts until lunch. He then says that his lunch isn’t dripping with fat, and that most of his fat comes from stored body fat. I don’t know what he ate, it owuld have been interesting to find out.

So just how much fat do you want to add to a meal? Ok we moderate our protein further than i’ve currently been advised, but how much fat is required? I could eat a chicken thigh and be full, but there isn’t as much fat on that as if i’d eaten a fattier portion of meat? This is why ‘eat until full’ isn’t really that helpful. I find this interesting because it sounds more flexible: he’s not eating a meal with a ton of fat added. Or so it seems.

It would also be helpful to know how much veg to include per meal. One of my concerns of Keto is that, with a max of 20g carbs (and for all I know that may be too high for me) you will struggle to find enough veg to give you essential nutrients. Many recipes include what appears to be very little: a few grams of leafy green per day. That can’t be enough.

#116

I trust that wasn’t directed at me as I was doing zero slagging off.

As an aside, I am currently doing a little n=1 challenge whereby I eat and extra amount of fat a day (see my BPC n=1 if you are interested). The fat in question is coconut oil. 3 days in and I am seeing mood improvement to my previous low mood.

(Martin Arnold) #117

it was a general comment since I don;t want to have a fight with anyone. I want what I’ve always wanted: to sort my body out and experience the benefits of keto adaptation. For the first two weeks what I ate sated me. Now, not at all.

I’ve had peppermint tea with 10g (tablespoon) of coconut oil. That didn’t fill me, i have to say. I’m sitting down to lunch with lettuce, grated cheese and a chicken thigh left over from yesterday, so a little bit of protein and some fat. I’ve drizsled on some EVOO and rubbed butter onto the chicken.

#118

Yes but roll with me on this one. What is at least part of the problem is being generated by your brain so psychosomatic. What are you doing to treat that element? I think you are making it worse and so persisting the cycle. #mytheoryonly

Also what I am noticing is that my ketosis level is strengthening - it had got pretty weak. Coincidence alongside change in mood? Nope!

Can you afford to get a Ketonix? I really recommend them as a way to track how you are doing from a ketosis POV. But they are an expensive outlay.

(Martin Arnold) #119

No, I cannot afford to buy one of those. I don’t think it would make any difference, it’s just another form of calorie counting. What would it mean to see a result that said i was fat adapted, but to not feel any different than now?

I have no idea what part of this is psychosomatic, I only know how I feel. I’m eating to feel full, but then finding i’m hungry again soon after. The easy response is to say “well you didn’t get enough fat in the meal”, but that begs the question, how much fat? Then we get back into the world of macros and calorie counting which people object to. I understand why, it’s tedious and depressing. But if I needed to add more fat, then how much more? 1g, 10g, 100g?

#120

No it isn’t at all. It has nothing to do with calories - it tests your breath acetone and shows your level of ketosis - the higher the reading the better basically. But I get it is too much of an outlay. I was extremely lucky to be gifted one. I also would not have been able to buy one myself.

99% likely you WOULD feel different to the way you do now which is why I don’t think you are yet fat-adapted. THis is not a slant on you or anything you are doing - it just takes time. For some people it can take a long time. I am not fully on board the fat-adapted train and I am nearly 6 months in. It is a useful way of seeing stats on the screen but, ultimately, how you feel can be your barometer.

People always get edgy when it is suggested that their very real physical symptom has been caused (or at least exacerbated or persisted) by their brain. The automatic position is a defensive - well what are you saying, I brought this on myself? that I can choose to change it at any time?

Not so. So a little example. I used to suffer badly from migraines (hardly at all now - thanks keto). If I went out for the day having forgotten my migraine meds I could almost guarantee I would get a migraine. So the likelihood is that the stress of knowing I had no ‘cure’ were I to get a migraine very likely brought on that which I was worried about. It is the same kind of thing when you have an auto immune disorder - your body attacks itself fro no good reason. It thinks it has reason but in fact there is no problem there. What ends up happening? You end up with the problem it thought you had!

If you have a tendency towards anxiety, you will get stressed easily. By overthinking this and worrying about why it is not going to plan, what you are doing wrong, why can’t you get full, what is going on with being hungry again… why, WTF, shit, pants… Now you are stressed. What happens when you get stressed? You get anxious. You get cortisol in your bloodstream. You get hungry. Add into this old concerns about fat and probably ‘failed’ diets etc. and boom! stress city. You also mentioned some problem with sleep. Boom! another factor.

You are looking for answers in how many grams of fat to solve the problem but I don’t think that is where the answer lies.

You have a few options really at this point…

  • just keep plodding on with the set ‘rules’ and be patient because it will likely change at some point
  • jack it all in and try something else (really early days to do this and it would be a great shame when you could be a tiny fraction away from getting on the keto train)
  • give my way a go :wink:
  • carry on getting stressed the hell out and looking for the answer in what you eat alone. Well you could try and ditch the stressed bit and simply experiment with a slightly different approach re macro levels each week and see what happens which would be a great approach. I strongly suspect that would;t work for you however.

It’s up to you but what were you like before? What have you tried before? Are you ready to throw in the towel already even though you have heard many people give you words of support and tell you how great it can be?

(Martin Arnold) #121

I’m doing what you’ve suggested. I’ve drunk two hot drinks with coconut oil in, anymore and it will be too sickly. It’s not leaving me sated at all.