New(ish) and Now Struggling


#62

I suggest you try a meal other than bacon and pork slices. You don’t need that much protein and can certainly afford to lower it temporarily. I haven’t heard that 30g a sitting is essential. I have 45-50g total protein a day and I’m doing wonderfully. Some people fat-fast, eating purely fat for days and they do fine also.

Also be mindful of your other sources of protein, from nuts, seeds, eggs and cheese… as well as some from vegetables. Also be mindful that some bacons contain sugar.

Your hunger could also be from eating too much protein or accidental carbs (from bacon or cured meats or other sources). It could also simply be an adjustment period of losing your sugar addiction (i.e. the body keeps craving sugar). It happened to me that way. I kept eating fat though as everyone advised and I got over the sugar addiction. Bacon never agreed with me. Tastes great. Feels awful (for me).

You won’t know unless you change your breakfast around a bit here and there and keep a log. Also, being willing to be patient. It’s a time of change. Allow time to change and also experiment. Also, when you’re logging your meals to people you should include everything you drink as well as eat and also be mindful about any supplements you are ingesting too as they often contain carbs.

Also, don’t worry so much. You will work it out. It honestly doesn’t sound like your experience is very unusual any regular ketoer here.

Good luck.

p.s. why not head over to the recipe section? I’m sure you’d find some interesting meals worth trying.


(Larry Lustig) #63

When I was getting fat adapted I was hungry all the time. That lasted about two months, without measuring or limiting the amount of good that I ate (but avoiding carbs)

It was very important for me to ensure that during that period I ate enough to be full. Otherwise I would never have stuck it out. During this period, as long as I left the table full, I was able to avoid constant between-meal snacking.

Even now, fully fat-adapted, I wouldn’t exactly say I’m not hungry, it’s not the same irresistible feeling I had when I ate carbohydrates.

So, my advice would be to make sure you have keto-friendly food and then eat enough of it without measuring either grams or calories until you’re full. Try to rest slowly and drink plenty of water. Do this for two months. Then, evaluate and see if you can start cutting out meals
.


(Martin Arnold) #64

I’ve tried lowering it, no difference. What meal would you suggest? Keto is not very flexible.

Honestly, it’s looking like I’m going to move on. I’m not sure this is worth the misery. If I can’t get a night’s sleep without feeling so hungry it’ slike i’ve been punched in the guy, something’s wrong. Unfortunately no one has a solid answer for this.

I’ve no idea how long it would take me to adapt, but i’m on week 6. The constant cravings are just ridiculous.


#65

I actually thought you’d probably do that from very early on in your postings. It seems like all along you’ve been seeking approval that it’s right for you to exit the diet. I say that because you’ve been given lots of good advice about eating to satiety but still you have been measuring your calories instead, and stopping before your hunger stops. I don’t think you can say you’ve given keto a good attempt but fair enough. Don’t put yourself through misery.

Agreed. But why are you starving yourself and refusing to eat? That’s not the diet doing that to you. That’s your personal adaptations and they are completely against how keto works.

Richard Morrises keto haiku begins with:

When hungry, eat fat

It’s that simple. It’s the very first principle of a keto diet. It’s important. It’s crucial. It’s not optional. The goal is to adapt to fat. So, when hungry, eat fat.

It’s not “when hungry, look at your calorie count and freak out”, which is your failing version of the diet. Another Richard Morris quote is:

Keep calm, and keto on.

Who here has advised you to stop eating when hungry? This is something you’ve brought to the keto diet that everyone else has consistently and universally asked you to let go of. Instead of letting go of your desire to starve yourself, you have decided the problem is with the diet or with your body. Your statements about feeling hungry all the time are nothing to do with keto. They are you insisting on calorie counting.

I see no evidence of anything unusual with the diet or your body. I also experienced tonnes of hunger when I was adapting. Many others have said the same thing. The overwhelming majority here agree that the problem is most likely that you are refusing to eat.

The lesson here for other newbies is to eat to satiety instead of trying to follow a calorie plan. Keto is a different kind of diet to other diets. It starts off hard and gets easier and easier and easier. Other diets are the opposite.

I felt the same, but that’s wrong. Actually it’s very flexible, and also it’s very personal, both in preference and personal metabolism. Which is why I and others have kept trying to give you new recipes. Have you been over to the recipe section like several of us have recommended? We are trying to help you but it does seem like you are ignoring the suggestions and just want support in self-sabotaging your diet.

I’m sorry but I won’t validate quitting for your reasons. Being hungry must be just about the worst reason ever to quit keto dieting. If you just ate instead of starving yourself your problem would be solved.

The diet works really really well. What you’re experiencing is normal, except that you are self-denying your hunger (against all the advice you are receiving).

Honestly, it’s not as hard as you’re making out. It really seems like you want to self-sabotage your keto diet on some level. If you started eating when hungry, everything would fall into place.

My partner quit the keto diet when she first gave it a go. After several months reflection she realised she truly had been fat phobic (she was also eating way too much protein). Ketostix confirmed that she wasn’t even in keto. Are you using them to confirm you are even in ketosis after one of your meals? So what happened was:

  1. she refused to eat enough fat
  2. lost heaps of weight (which freaked her out)
  3. was hungry all the time
  4. had low energy and stomach upsets (from eating too much protein)

It happens when people refuse to follow the actual keto advice being given and try to mix it up with other dietary thinking (like calorie restriction). Keto is not a calorie restriction diet. Now she’s back on board (as she understands keto better and her own biases).

Good luck.

p.s.

Here’s a beginner meal I give to people who think keto is weird but are curious about it:

Grate up a cauliflower, and fry it in ghee and coconut oil with italian spices and 2 garlic cloves. Lay it on your plate with 5-7 anchovies on top. Have some ghee-fried haloumi also on the side and some ghee-fried greens (perhaps also some porcini mushrooms, not button). Put 2 tablespoons of sour cream on top of the cauliflower and greens. Eat until full and save any leftovers. Eat them when hungry again. Also have real stevia sweetened super-low-carb fat-bombs (with almond butter, or any protein nut butter) for dessert and throughout the remaining hours until your hunger is sated, or at least dampened. *sub butter for ghee if necessary.

I honestly think you need to spend some real time in the recipe section and get a good feel for what people are eating. Don’t build your meal plans around protein anymore (as you have been). Instead, build your meal plan around fat.


(Martin Arnold) #66

Ive had 3 meals of 50g fat today, as well as protein and some carbs obviously. It doesn’t fill me up.


#67

Eat more fat. That’s only 1300 calories. It’s a starvation attitude and keto self-sabotage. Read my post. I would die on your version of the diet. I would be hungry and miserable too.

and stop counting your fat grams. How many times do we have to say it?

Stop counting your fat grams.
Stop counting your fat grams.
Stop counting your fat grams.

Eat when hungry. Stop depriving yourself of food. It’s not keto.
Eat when hungry. Stop depriving yourself of food. It’s not keto.
Eat when hungry. Stop depriving yourself of food. It’s not keto.
Eat when hungry. Stop depriving yourself of food. It’s not keto.


(Martin Arnold) #68

I’ve been eating at 1700 calories total.

Fat is not filling me.


#69

Why are you still quoting figures to us. It’s as if you haven’t heard a word anyone has said.

Your obsessive clinging to your calculations is completely counter-productive. Let it go and just eat until you are full and everything will fall into place.

Just drop your calorie counting. Did you even read my post. It’s not a calorie-counting diet.

If you are counting your calories you are trying to sabotage your diet. Let it go.


#70

I was eating well over 2000 cals a day when I had my biggest hungers during adaptation. I say “well over” because I stopped counting. My meal plan was for 1500 and I regularly almost doubled it.

Why are you stubbornly starving yourself? Of course you’re in misery. It’s not the diet causing you misery. It’s your calorie counting.

I suggest you have a good deep sigh about letting go of calorie counting and then you go ahead and actually stop counting.


(Guardian of the bacon) #71

Science is against you. Fat is undeniably the most satiating macro. All you have to do is eat enough of it.


#72

By the way, your 1350 cals of fat in a 1700 cal diet is less than the 80% fat or more needed for adaptation… as well as being so little that it leaves you hungry.


#73

I wish there was a magical cure for fat-phobia.


(Martin Arnold) #74

I’m not making a scientific claim, I’m making a statement from my own experience. If I don’t feel full, i don’t feel full!

However the science suggests that it’s protein that sates, fat is just meant too keep you sated longer.

Either way, I struggle to add more fat. It’s just not pleasant to eat a meal covered in 70g of fat including frying in butter, and whatever else. This is a real struggle for me. I eat fatty meat, i fry it, I cannot find another 20g to add per meal. Assuming that’s enough, in fact how are you going to know how much is enough? I eat cream from the pot to try and fill me up, but it still isn’t enoug.


(Martin Arnold) #75

I’m not convinced that a high fat intake is the prerequisite for adaptation. I have plenty of body fat and I’m not eating carbs. There’s no way you can put a number on it anyway.

We haven’t established for sure that it is a reduced fat intake that is the issue here. Calling it fat phobia is not really helpful. Eating food drenched in fat is not pleasant, and when i do eat fat it doesn’t fill me.


(Guardian of the bacon) #76

So eat another fatty ribeye. eat a couple more chicken legs…just eat more


#77

It shouldn’t be up to us to call it fat-phobia. It’s actually you that needs to say it to yourself. It’s not a bad label. It’s something everyone has. It’s been a cultural phenomena for 5 decades. If you think you aren’t fat-phobic… then you’ve got it really bad.

You keep offering us your expert opinion about how keto is failing you, yet nothing you’ve said indicates that the diet is the problem. I mean truly, nothing. there’s plenty of people reading this thread and nobody interjecting and saying “hey man, yeah it’s the diet failing you. quit it.”

If you want to quit, just quit. But don’t seek our approval. It’s obvious to any regular ketoer that you are fat and calorie phobic (just like everyone else). You are restricting what you shouldn’t be restricting and you are denying your own natural hunger. You are going against all the expert keto advice on how to adapt. You are counting calories and as far as I can tell haven’t read a keto recipe site or tried another recipe other than bacon. I don’t know where you’re getting your information from but it seems to be a mish-mesh of diet information from all over. It’s no wonder it’s not fitting together and it’s not working for you.

Here’s another keto expert recommending you eat until full. Please actually watch it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGQVtd0FARc


(Martin Arnold) #78

I do eat till i’m full, and being full doesn’t last. That’s what I’m saying here. In fact i’ve just eaten a load of cream to snack on.

I can’t eat a meal that’s not complete, i feel worse if i don’t leave the table full.

I claim no expert opinion. I’m simply telling you the problem I am having


(Martin Arnold) #79

I do. It’s just not filling me up.


#80

So eat again. We’ve been saying this a lot. Then, eat again. And eat again. Eat when hungry and eat until full. Eat when hungry. Eat when hungry.

Remember the haiku? I just wrote it 5 posts ago. It’s in bold

WHEN HUNGRY, EAT FAT

I made a big deal about it. Yet, you’re arguing over why your one meal doesn’t keep you satisfied.

Frankly, I don’t have time to keep saying the same things to you. It’s your choice. Do the diet or don’t do the diet.

Just remember if you quit it was because you were starving yourself, not because the diet was a problem.

If you don’t like the stickiness of fat, fair enough. Just go to the recipe section and ask for recipes that don’t involve sticky fat. It’s not hard.


#81

I’ve said all along that I believe you are grossly underestimating your adaptation calorie needs. I think it’s probably in the order of 8+ tablespoons of pure fat.

Come back when you can say you are hungry after eating 2700+ calories, including 10 tablespoons of (non-sticky intelligent and appropriate) fat bombs and no bacon or pork.