Much Better After Quitting Keto

(Bob M) #9

Interesting article.

#10

Mediterrean diet is a thing, you can look it up, I remember it just vaguely, it’s definitely way too carby for me! Grains, vegetables, fruits are surely in it. Seafood… No idea about the rest but it’s some more or less well defined diet, I hear about it now and then.
I actually don’t know how one eats when they say it’s paleo. Last time I heard it from someone, it was almost carnivore. But I ate moderate/high-carb vegetarian paleo for my paleo month.
Keto is even “worse” as there are vegans and carnivores among ketoers :smiley: Some people put almond flour and lactose into everything and some people totally avoid them. Some people ban absolutely nothing on keto and others almost everything.

(Bob M) #11

Well, Nina Teicholz has devoted part of her book (The Big Fat Surprise) to this, where she reaches the conclusion there is no such thing as a “Mediterranean” diet. At least not one that can be defined.

You can find definitions of it, but they are just made up. People just put what they think is “healthy” into the diet. The Mediterranean is too big to have “one” “diet”.

I agree with you that all these terms leave something to be desired. But at least I know that keto means <50 grams or so (or less of carbs). Paleo and primal don’t allow grains.

See here for one definition:

Of course, what they list there is complete garbage for people who actually live in those areas.

#12

Okay, I’ve just read a little about it and seemed some diet with rules. But it’s surely that, just more vague we like diets…? Open for interpretation to a too big extent? If I will be very curious, I will read about it more but it’s not sure I find the answer easily. So many insane things are called “keto” too… (I saw carb-based ones. Some was even pretty low-carb - and almost no calories, what is this addiction with creating starvation “diets”? But those are hard to mistake for some proper diet.)

Keto and paleo has different definitions/rule sets too. Well, keto basically have a single rule :smiley: But it’s not always the same. There are some carb limit, sometimes 20g, sometimes 30g, sometimes 50g (hey, that’s probably too much for even me and surely way too much for many). My definition is that we are in ketosis, only that makes sense to me except the 20g net carbs one that is supposedly works for nearly everyone. But on this forum I’ve read it’s not so…
I don’t even know what exactly paleo is and I did it. The Hungarian one (except I never gave up my green peas. only on carnivore, obviously but I never planned to do carnivore very long term). Some versions allow much more. A page was adamant we must eat 50g carbs. If we eat little, eat some rice or potato (there was nothing about resistant starch there, just carbs for the brain). I consider it not quite keto as it’s not ketosis for most people but it wasn’t very far.
And as people call their diet keto if they eat much carbs before exercise (it’s kind of okay as they are in ketosis almost all the time) or do CKD, I really don’t know what to think when one says they do keto. And there are the people who do keto with more than 50g carbs because they can do it (or not but they think they do keto). Normally, yes, keto diet means little carbs, that’s something but only a single piece information, not even sure ketosis.

#13

Wasn’t the main reason the Mediterranean Diet was promoted as healthy back in the day because Ancel Keys and his cronies used to get free trips to the Greek Islands?

#14

@ChrisW, you live in a Mediterranean climate. So do I. Bu a long way from the Mediterranean Sea. What do you eat?

I eat foods that create nutritional ketosis.

@David_Mathis so good that you are feeling better and healthier. Thanks for sharing the experience. I wondered what people did when a ketogenic diet they try doesn’t work.

(David Mathis) #15

For me the new way of eating is roughly like this:

Eat:** Vegetables (I tend to avoid the starch and eat more leafy greens), berries, nuts, seeds, legumes, whole grains, herbs, spices, fish, seafood and extra virgin olive oil. Love quinoa.

Eat in moderation:** Poultry, eggs, cheese and yogurt.

Eat only rarely:** Red meat

Don’t eat:** Sugar-sweetened beverages, added sugars, processed meat, refined grains, refined oils and other highly processed foods.

I’ve done this diet before and had good bloodwork and a healthy weight of around 165.

The only real difference from the keto I was on is the added grains, legumes, quinoa, less cheese, berries and yogurt. Slightly more carbs. I estimate about 100-150g a day.

I do eat dark chocolate and drink a glass of wine (dry-less sugar) every other day.

#16

Sounds great David!

After I heal with the way my body responds to carbohydrates, I’d love to be able to eat like that while keeping my biomarkers at optimal ranges.

But first things first for me.

(Jane) #17

Pretty much how I remember it.

#18

Yes, ‘mediterranean’ is often a wastebasket term when practiced American SAD style - or just industrial style - which is basically processed carbs-centered and heavy on the olive oil (which is a relatively new fat, not a traditional one). I’ve been exploring this more lately, as I love a lot of mediterranean cuisine (sans pasta and non-keto bread).

However traditional mediterranean was actually low carb - with protein central, very small portions of wheat or rice as sides only, abundant animal fats along with mostly raw olive oil - and desserts only once a week max. There are other forum threads about traditional Italian vs. modern that go into it too.

The filmmaker Donal O’Neill who did the Cereal Killers docu did a second film with Aseem Malhotra MD where they travel into traditional mediterranean cuisine & culture history, and visit where Ancel Keys worked and explore what happened to the traditional mediterranean dietary culture directly connected to diverse regional cuisines that all had certain things in common (ie, lack of ultra processed foods for starters). It was originally called “The Pioppi Protocol” but they changed the title to “The Big Fat Fix” - I downloaded it for twenty bucks to watch it - it might also be on Amazon now. It’s also in the Diet Doctor membership pages.

www.thebigfatfix.com

There’s also an app (of course!)

https://app.pioppiprotocol.com/

I found this research ( Long Term Successful Weight Loss with a Combination Biphasic Ketogenic Mediterranean Diet and Mediterranean Diet Maintenance Protocol) published in the Nutrients journal in 2013 compelling - and it would be even more if extended as a way of life. It’s part of what molecular biologist & integrative nutrition coach Elena Maganto PhD (who is from the region - Spain) bases her protocols on:

And nowadays there’s a ton of new keto-mediterranean cookbooks (though keto Italian-American George Stella’s cookbooks have that covered for me - esp the Quick & Easy one!)

Traditional “Mediterranean” isn’t monolithic, there are numerous cultural variations between mediterranean countries and within them - but certain common denominators like very low sugar!

However, I do think - as Nina Teicholz has pointed out - that the massive olive oil industry has a vested interest in promoting heavy use of olive oil rather than the traditional mediterranean use of lard (and organ meats!)

(David Mathis) #19

@SlowBurnMary thanks for all of the info. I will definitely be using avocado and nut oils too.

I agree that Mediterranean diet is very ambiguous. Most labels are. It just seemed to be the closest label to the foods I chose.

I’m adjusting on intuition here. I closely monitor heart rate, etc, and noticed a dramatic increase in my heart rate when I first started keto (especially during exercise). That never really normalized. Then on a couple of high carb days it slightly dropped. My resting heart rate has been 56. Now that I’m on the new diet it’s 51. My blood pressure on keto was consistently hitting 130/90. Now that I’m on the new diet it’s consistently dropping back down to 110/70. There’s also the fiber thing which I think has helped with weight loss due to being able to empty my colon. I struggled with constipation all throughout keto and only found relief from phylum husk.

I really can’t explain why the new diet works for me for weight loss, vitals and bloodwork. I just closely monitor myself and adjust based on my body’s feedback. It worked fantastic years ago and seems to be working the same now. My body seems to thrive on a mostly fish diet in the 100-150g of carb range of whole grains and quinoa.

(Edith) #20

Well, it sounds like going keto helped you remove the junk from your diet and now you have modified to something that works for you long term.

I think we all may need to be changing things up over time as we age and change.

(David Mathis) #21

That’s it exactly. Removing the junk.

I’ve been able to weigh in the 160s at three points in my life. 1) when I was 20 2) when I ate “Mediterranean” in my 30s 3) when I ate keto in my early 40s.

About 4 years ago, when I was last in my 160s, I went through a divorce, lost my job of 10 years and moved states all at once. Then, I met my new wife shortly after this, only she was English so I went through an immigration process with her, etc, right after the first list of traumas (navigating the immigration process is traumatic, expensive and uncertain). During this time I ate to medicate. Pizzas, chips, candy, etc. I went from the 160s up to above 200.

The keto diet was precisely chosen to get rid of the junk. It was the last diet I had success with. Not really sure why it failed this time, but I gave it 100+% effort and just couldn’t make it work.

#22

David, as an add on have a look at Ted Naiman’s work. He is a lean medical doctor that talks about protein and mineral leverage ideas. The thing that interests me is that he times his carbohydrate eating. He eats about 100g of carbs per day but he strategically eats it after eating the fat and protein part of his evening meal. The carbs aren’t mixed in with the fat and protein.

This targeted eating results in lower blood glucose excursions after that meal and presumably lower insulin response. He then does not eat again for about 16 hours and by then he is in measurable ketosis. That is a 100g carb diet that he still regards as low carb because the average daily carbohydrate intake he estimates is about 300g per day.

Ted doesn’t eat carbohydrates in his breakfast meal as he mentioned that it has him 'chasing carbs all day", so he has a protein and fat based breakfast.

There may be a few strategies here that interest you? That may help toward your health goals.

I think the Peak Human podcast or the Fat Emperor podcast have the latest interviews with Ted.

#23

What you are describing here is an observed nervous system response recognised in some people. It is often highlighted in lists as one of the reasons why the ketogenic diet is “dangerous”. The evidence is there, especially with the increased blood pressure. I reckon one of the dangers might be that a medical doctor would be prescribing all sorts of medicines if they saw it. Lucky you found the nutritional treatment.

The autonomic nervous system can be stimulated by dietary inputs. The sympathetic nervous system is stimulated by the low carbohydrate state with increased heart rate and resultant increased blood pressure along with cortisol and sometimes adrenaline release. It is a physiological stress response. The body that has grown used to being fuelled by carbohydrates with associated blood glucose excursions and insulin responses every 2 or 3 hours senses the change and resists it. Plus the addiction aspects of some dopamine and endorphin responses in the brain suddenly change from regular pulses to being absent (going cold turkey). Just you try and take away some of this forum’s member’s coffee and you’ll see the response played out. The stress response elevates blood glucose from internal stores, hoping for some carbohydrates to be eaten soon. Which you did.

This response can be felt and recorded during the fat adaptation period in the ketogenic diet starting phase. The gut biome changes, different enzyme systems are ramped up to digest and distribute fatty acids, ketones start to be produced and lots of them are spilled from the body (in urine and breath) as cells in the body need to adapt through organelle changes, mitochondrial change to the new available fuel. The lower insulin releases sodium at the same time as glycogen is released dragging body water with it and the whole electrolyte balance of the body has to readjust. Those electrolyte changes can have direct effect on heart rate and rhythm. The reward centre in the brain is sending messages to the memory centres saying “remember where you found those sugars and carbohydrates, go looking for them again and get me some”. It can be quite discomfiting.

Crikey, I hope not too many nervous newbies are reading this. It’s like something penned by Joseph Conrad or Stephen King, just not as good nor as compelling.

I know I am sensitive to heart palpitations and heart rate changes and that increased heart rate can feel like a constant anxiety, others have even described it as an impending sense of doom. The high blood pressure can instigate head aches and in some people high screeching tinnitus.

But hey, I’m a nutritional ketosis fan.

Eating carbohydrates stimulates the parasympathetic nervous system. Whereas the sympathetic nervous system stimulation results in a stress response (fight, flight, freeze response), the parasympathetic response is a relaxing response (rest and digest). It’s that contented, dozy feeling one might experience after a family feast. The carbohydrate food is the addictive antidote (I might say unfortunately due to my dietary bias) to the sympathetic stress response. It just means that reverting back to a higher carbohydrate intake may preclude one from experiencing the benefits of low carbohydrate nutritional ketosis.

But there are other ways to have your carbs and eat them and maybe also experience ketosis. The other levers to pull are mentioned in my previous post:

  1. Time restricted eating/ eating meals without snacks in between with greater than 12 hours of not eating over night
  2. Targeted carbohydrate eating with just eating them as the final part of the last meal for the day
  3. Increased physical activity, higher intensity may result in higher chance of ketones.
  4. Fasting (not eating) - but this one is a chicken & egg game, where it is easier to fast when nutritional ketosis provides satiety and appetite control

TLDR KCKO

(Polly) #24

It is good to hear that you have found something which works for you and that you are now in your happy weight place @David_Mathis

#25

I understand how you feel. I lost some weight on keto but my weight just yo-yo’d the cravings never stopped and it’s unreasonable to think I will NEVER cheat.

I went off keto for a few weeks, about 3 weeks now. I can say that my weight has ballooned back up with water weight. A lot of issues I had before have come back too. So I will personally return to keto, but Keto does not fix my weight problem.

I have been trying Keto for 2 years.
Positives:
Clearer skin
Little or no edema in my legs/feet
Less moody/mood swings
Less/No brain fog
Better sleep
Negative trend in weight (though excruciatingly slow)
Cheaper (not snacking and spending money on garbage foods)

Negative:

  • Can be expensive if buying good quality foods
  • Lots of negativity around it from the science community
  • Difficult to do anything with friends that involves food or drinks
  • unnecessary burden on family that invite me over for dinner
  • my 100 year old great grandma doesn’t understand and makes me rice… and then waits for me to come home from work just to feed it to me… who would say no to that? I am not that big of an ass hole LOL.
  • Lost weight quickly (water) then a complete stall for months. Lost a little more, then another stall for months (rinse and repeat)
  • No long term studies to know if we are putting ourselves at risk for something else in the process
  • Not the most sustainable diet environmentally if you go moderate to heavy meat based.

I don’t hate keto, but I no longer preach it to others. I no longer know if I believe keto had/has anything to do with my weight loss, or if just making healthier choices, drinking more water, getting more sleep, and not eating garbage did it.

If I cut out the garbage food, sleep more, and drink more water… most of my issues go away without keto. I was losing weight without keto, it was slower but there was no Yo-Yoing of weight, constant struggles to avoid eating foods I never lost cravings for, and felt restricted.

I will be returning to keto though like every desperate delusional gf that would rather be with him than without XD… gotta live for the good days I guess.

I’m sure my fate is the same as my mother. Try hard and lose anyways, exercise, eat well, take care of yourself, and get fat anyways. At least I will have nice muscles under all that cottage cheese on my legs :frowning:

(David Mathis) #26

We do the best we can. I don’t think any of us asked to be in this bizarre flesh body. We just find ourselves here on this ball in space dealing with eating, something our bodies evolved to do for millions years before we were born.

An odd thing I ran into with keto is when I would accidentally eat too many carbs and my body would soak up water and make my muscles swell up 5lbs over a day.

(Randy) #27

HAHAHA!!! :laughing:

(Justin S) #28

Franko, you seem like quite a knowledgeable vet around here. Any idea if this exact same response can happen for someone attempting to go off keto after a long stint on very strict 20g or less regimine for over a year?

What you’ve described matches exactly the way I started feeling when I recently attempted to stop eating keto and go back to carbs for a few weeks. My brain basically stopped working, couldn’t concentrate on anything, and had trouble following even basic conversations with people. This led to my anxiety ramping up higher than I have ever known, and my kidneys seem to have started acting up too. Depression came back in full force and I was at wits end until I just went back to keto, though at a slightly higher carb level than before, maybe 40g or so.

My mind is now doing MUCH better, and I generally feel better in terms of digestion and energy levels. Though I am still concerned about my kidneys due to some strange warning signs I’ve noticed that appear to all correlate with kidney dysfunction. They have lessened since going back to keto though, so I am going to wait a bit before seeing a doc about it. I’m in my early 30s, kidneys should not already be shot.

Anyways, just wondering if you knew anything about this or could point me towards someone that does.

Cheers!