MOOvember Carnivore

(Vic) #260

Project is running like a train, meaning I’m as bored as a marble statue.

For fun I calculated my average food spending’s for this month so far (away from home only).

Its €17 and 32cent a day. I do have a small kitchen in my office so I can cook myself. No restaurants required.

I should add that I have no budged and I do not personally have to pay for it.
I do not look at prices in the shop, I look at the meat and let my eyes decide.

Food prices in Gibraltar are similar to those in the UK and most of central Europe.
For reference a breakfast in the average hotel is €12 (I don’t eat breakfast 2mad only)

As food cost is interesting lately, why not share here.


Carnivore top knowledge right there!!

Your body tells you what to buy and eat as mine does.

Now my ‘darn ol’ crab legs I love and adore’ literally for ‘taste’ are not a physical draw. My on the hoof meat is my real body nutrition draw which is why I moan and groan and am irked to no end my crab legs are so thru the roof in price that I won’t buy them now…cause they ‘are not required’ in my actual carni life…but damn I do love that taste LOL

Vic I get you totally on your post! As it goes down for us carnivores truly for those of us who have healed way past what ‘food is to us’ on the ‘market’ and even with an ‘unlimited budget’…great post.


I can’t say something smart about the topics emerged… I am sorry for @FrankoBear’s and @MeganNZ’s troubles :frowning:

I fear I often reach $5 per day for food cost… I just can’t do the old ~$3 on good days. And it’s impossible to go higher now. But it’s enough for my pork and eggs and dairy, yay :wink:

I surely will have off days in December, I plan to try out how low I can go using plants (well, the 2 kinds that doesn’t cause overeating, ruining the day even cost wise. very carby low-protein plants are out and not many remains)… Just for one day, I am sure it’s pretty much impossible in a sustainable way. Carnivore (or very close) is the best for me cost wise too. And people always considered meat expensive… I don’t understand. So they always surrounded it with a ton of various carbs… Okay, the cost per energy content went down (usually. considering how super expensive plants can get, it depends but it’s the same for the meat too) but it doesn’t help me out if I need extreme overeating for the same level of satiation. And I will feel worse.
So while Alvaro needs its carbs to be able to afford eating (among other reasons), I don’t. If I needed much more energy, I would just add more fat. Fat is pretty cheap for its energy content, it doesn’t really affect my costs. My high protein intake does but I just can’t do anything about it beyond trying to do OMAD.

Fortunately meat prices (the “right” cuts of pork and turkey, chicken thigh, organs) are still pretty good, it’s other things that went up like crazy. I think I simply won’t buy sunflower seeds for the chickadees, it’s more expensive than my meat! (If I only consider the edible part but of course I do.) It’s good we have enough walnuts to feed them (walnut trees are absolutely everywhere and they had a good year. it doesn’t mean it’s not very expensive to buy. but I don’t buy it) and they eat small grains too. Animal fat is problematic as 1. I need that 2. it’s too soft in normal winter temperature.

We had sunshine today but winter arrived, it’s cold.

I had a nice lunch but talk about my full day tomorrow when I will see what happened. I won’t have any numbers as I don’t even track meat separately every day now. Much better. If I can contain my curiosity…

(Robin) #263

@FrankoBear Several non-heart related things here caught my interest, Mister Bear.
I have had trouble staying asleep for long enough now that I think it may be carnivore related. Good to know.
Also, every night before bed I drink a glass of water with salt and magnesium powder. (Otherwise I get leg cramps and wake up with a headache.) I was thinking I only drank this concoction for the cramps, but perhaps it’s more fundamental than that.

(Edith) #264

Could you tell me the name of the program? I would love to give it a try.

(Edith) #265

The problem with the ZC forums is that the ones that are long timers are the ones that have had success. The ones that had problems don’t hang around once they are not longer following the ZC way of eating. You don’t get to hear about their trials and tribulations because they left.

One of the ZC forums I left because their answer was always “eat more meat,” and I don’t believe that is always the appropriate response for people not adapting well or running into problems after initial success on carnivore.

@carnivoor2, As far as Paul Saladino is concerned, I listened to his podcast about why he stopped being pure carnivore. He said he couldn’t get his electrolytes straightened out no matter how he tried and he was having heart palpitations. Considering what a carnivore fanatic he was, I am willing to bet his tried all he could before he stopped carnivore.

Below are links to a similar conversation a few weeks ago.

(Karen) #266

A strange night… I went to bed shortly after 9pm and eventually dropped off to an irritable sleep till 12.15am. I was wide awake so went downstairs for about 30mins… returned to bed and snuggled down, prayed for a good sleep and I was out like a light, sometimes those prayer are answered in an instance! I then actually slept till just after 6am and still went back to sleep!

50 stair runs done and downstairs, medicated, BP done 112/62 and out into the very chilly garden to have coffee and read my books. Opened up my chest and I coughed like a good’un hahaha.

Brunch was about 11.45am 3 chicken eggs fried with 4 thin rashers bacon.

Well that pork mince i mentioned earlier was actually 800g! Reduced price to £1.38 :smiley: … as we’re talking prices … I got bored making them into burgers so you may notice from the photos that they got progressively bigger, just to get it over and done with. I put a bit of grated cheese in the middle of them and saved a bit for sprinkling on top once cooked. I mixed in some seasoning and some fine chilli flakes. Worked out well and they were just spiced enough to taste, not to blow my brains out … done that too many times lol. They cooked lovely, stayed in good burger form and didn’t crumble when I cut through them any more than if they were shop bought burgers. I managed the 3 largest and will maybe have the 3 smaller ones cold tomorrow.

BTW it looks like there is a condiment sauce on the top of the burgers but it is just browned by the frying pan. I didn’t cook them in any fat, just a dry pan.

Yesterday evening food … nearly forgot to photo the steak ribeye, it was especially tasty, tender and even better was reduced to £2.50 and couldn’t resist the second packet of cooked bacon strips.

(Vic) #267

I’m most certainly biased due to my successful results on Carnivore WOE. That is so.

Also I don’t think eathing a small amount fruit is unhealthy. In season I sometimes eat a handfull of berries.

But we have not evolved with any of the fruit that is in the shop today at all. It didn’t exist a few thousand years a go.
The fruit our ancestors could find in season was nothing like the super sweet genetically manipulated fruit in shops today.

But in the end, I wish for all to be healthy and happy, if that means to eat this or that. I’m all for it.

(Robin) #268

Another perk of retirement. You can take your sleep when you find it. Sometimes in multiple doses.


We can thank @FrankoBear for putting the link here first :smiley:

It freezes sometimes but it’s still possible to generate zillion pics per day, I had some intense hours, now I start to calm down :wink: I should paint all by myself, using what I got… I am sure I can learn a lot from it. Some styles are good with colors. And interesting. And the Surreal is good at generating fantastical objects… Even if it had no idea what a spoon is when I tried.


I trust my day is done. TMAD, 5 hour eating window. Probably okay macros due to pretty normal amounts… I was slightly hungry at lunchtime but couldn’t resist… I had fresh fried pork chuck :smiley: I ate a lot. No tracking so no idea how much but I suppose it was close to a pound. A tiny bit leftover lean pork roast, a little dessert, my successful marshmallow fluff.

No hunger even at 7:30pm but I was sure it couldn’t be enough food for today and I WOULD get hungry at midnight so I ate. 7 sponge cake muffins with cheese, little leftover sour cream and half a sausage.

All is well and chill, I had no hunger/satiation/appetite problems today.

But I don’t have pork in my freezer anymore (except what I couldn’t get off from the small pork chuck bone) so I told Alvaro to get some if I can’t go this week but I plan to. I don’t want cycling and it’s unlikely Alvaro will run this week so it should be a car day: rain in the morning and better weather in the early afternoon. He is very determined to never use the car if it’s not a must due to rain or big snow. Cycling/walking 6km before 6am in winter sounds very horrible to me but he isn’t me. He avoid roads as he doesn’t want another accident so he crosses the more or less wet and muddy forest in the dark, he need to walk here and there and visibility is poor sometimes, good headlight or not. He has dedication. And going by car is still more expensive than cycling (and the latter is costly too, the terrain isn’t nice to the bicycle).
Alvaro still takes cold showers too. I do half-cold ones, it starts very cold and in the very end it’s almost lukewarm sometimes :smiley: I am lazy to wait for the warmer water to arrive and I start with the parts of my body which are fine with cold water. I changed a lot. I could take cold showers but they wouldn’t be pleasant at all so nope. It would be lovely with the summer cold water but we have winter cold now, IDK if it’s 5C or 8C but neither aren’t something I want on my body when showering :wink: I am very pleased I don’t need warm water, it should be enough until late spring :wink:

EDIT: 3MAD and 7 hours. Of course. I can’t do TMAD. And pork chuck is very nearly irresistible anyway.

(Megan) #271

Hey Frankbear, I’m relieved the episode resolved again in response to salty bone broth and magnesium citrate. I think your use of the word potential makes your statement not blanket at all. You also have medical/scientific training and are committed to using food to heal, so doubt you are “just talking from a hole in your head” sans anything to back it up. Interesting wakefulness and trouble sleeping may be on the lower side of the cardiac symptom continuum. I recently did a lot of reading and doco watching about our “ancestral diet” and minerals/electrolytes needs were met very differently when compared to grabbing ribeye and lamb chops and prawns and pork from the chiller and freezer section of our supermarkets.

Thank you, you are very sweet. She spent the day at the vet yesterday, her blood work is terrible in regards to red blood cells, haematocrit and haemaglobin. Her reticylocyte count is very high so she’s been bleeding internally for a good few days. It looks like her body has managed to clot the bleeding site/s enough to stabilize her, and the IV fluids have stabilized her blood pressure etc. She’s home on very strict crate rest for 7 days and made it thru the night. I know doesn’t have long to live now she has developed enough secondaries to cause such a bad intra-abdominal bleed.

Absolutely this. I was really shocked when I joined the KetoAF (Kero Animal Foods) facebook group. So many 3+ year carnivores talking about their health problems and pre-diabetic and diabetic level blood glucose levels and HbA1c, and how many forums/groups they have left or been kicked from b/c they wanted to talk about how the “eat more meat and give it more time” advice wasn’t working for them, despite trying it for several years.

I am pro-carnivore as a woe. I feel okay physically and mentally eating this way and I am losing weight and my inflammation is much, much better. I also see it as a vastly more healthy way to eat when compared to eating the crap we call food these days. I am not zealously pro-carnivore though. I do strongly support the advice to give one’s body enough time to go thru adaptation, and I do believe some of the healing that needs to happen can take a good amount of time and can be an ongoing process. But I would never say it works or should work for everyone, or even most people. I walk in my shoes, no one else’s.


The Bart Kay video was good, if a bit overloaded with logic flaws, the obvious one being the ad hominem attack. The other being appeals to authority. But it wasn’t totally that. It was good to hear the Professor’s point of view and scientific leads.

He did mention the risk of overeating dietary fat in the environment of inadequate protein as a potential cause for electrolyte losses. I’ll do some protein calculations. But I’m sure that I am eating in the league of about 2g dietary protein per kg of lean body mass. For me that is about the equivalent of 800g of ruminant meat per day, some of that equivalence as bacon and eggs.

I also have to review my knowledge of the Randall Cycle.

(Megan) #273

After a watching a couple of his talks/interviews I’d had enough. I know he is “playing a character” as a way to get views (heard him talk about this in one interview) but I don’t find his delivery style in any way appealing. It also ends up making me question the validity of what he is saying b/c I wonder if he’s saying it to get a reaction. /shrug who knows.

Do you remember what he based this statement on?

How are you feeling today?

(Michael) #274

I finally found the time to watch both videos posted by @FrankoBear and @carnivoor2 . I do not believe I learned anything new, but I did hear a few tidbits from both which seemed correct and a few that were not quite right. For example, Bart talked about not getting an insulin spike from fruits since they contain fructose only. Fruits contain fructose, glucose and separately sucrose in varying amounts. The insulin index notes the insulin responses to food . That same list however, backs up Bart’s comments that protein is sufficient to raise insulin without carbs, which I agree strongly. Paul notes that high protein causes an insulin spike which (not quite correct way to think of it but essentially yes) knocks people our of ketosis. From my understanding that is about 50g carbs or 150g protein will provide equivalently large insulin spike and similar ketogenic shutdown response.
Certainly the insulin spike is important for muscle growth and raising testosterone. This is why I personally feel it is important to eat sufficient protein (150g + ) in a short period of time to create said spike. Splitting your protein into many smaller meals at a time, OR, limiting your protein to small amounts will eventually kill your thyroid, testosterone levels and raise your SHBG. As some may know I supplement my carnivore diet with Boron to help offset this same issue. Net scoop, I think Bart has a better understanding of the science and Paul has mostly got some ideas correct, but slanted towards carb intake to more easily achieve insulin spikes as opposed to simply eating more protein at a time. I am currently trying to determine how long I am willing to lower my protein intake (to encourage protein autophagy) noting that in the long run, without carbs, high protein loads are essential.


Hi Megan. Thanks for asking.

There is nutrition and there is nourishment. Nourishment comes from the good people here discussing, facts, ideas, and opinions. Problem solving is fun in a group. The feedback, sharing (knowledge and resources), and gentle respect in the presentation of differing ideas is of very high social value.

I have been reflecting on these episodes of atrial fibrillation (AF), and what fixes them. I have a higher level of chest pains associated with them since my recent medical experiences with vaccination reactions and a winter bout of COVID. Previous to coronavirus, and possibly the injury, the AF episodes were just exhausting and uncomfortable.

Today I feel fine. Yesterday was a recovery day, where I did some computer work, created some art and had a walk in a forest. Just spent an hour at the beach with a soft sand walk in the sunshine with Billie and Mrs. Bear, plus a swim and a short bodysurf. I can feel the sunshine on my skin still.

Something that @Karen18 and @Fangs noted is that we must be careful on how we express our individual experiences on the carnivore way of eating. To take care not to solely blame the WoE. Hence the use of the ‘qualifier’ word: potential. That made me reflect on how I was in a minority of people, at the edge of a graph curve, that had an mRNA vaccine reaction. I did come into carnivore with AF already experienced while I was in the long-term keto phase. Of course a thousand more thoughts spin off from there. How many people come into carnivore ZC healthy, partly healed, and broken? So many variables. So many questions.

I agree with you and @VirginiaEdie Edith that different groups of long-term practitioners are self selecting.

The way I understood the physiology of too much fat and not enough protein causing electrolyte loss is through insulin’s effect in the kidney and sodium regulation. If the protein in a carnivore diet is not high enough, then the insulin curve after a meal is flattened. That is the insulin that is also required to regulate and retain sodium at the kidney.

How is Grace?

This is a picture of some late season Spring wildflowers in the forest. These are pink enamel orchids.

(Vic) #276

I already know 2 (healthy)persons IRL who had Hart problems after the 3th and 4th mRNA vaccine.
One almost didn’t survive and was raced to the hospital by chopper with a hart rate of 195.
The Cardiologist who treated her was already on a mission to protest against the censorship ongoing in central Europe concerning data on side effects.
I do not believe you’re at the edge of the curve at all, its common.
Obscured by the massive amount of people who already have a hart conditions the data on mRNA side-effect related to cardio problems is at best stinky and smelly.

There is so much money involved in the whole cov19 industry that a lot of scepticism is warranted.

Navigating the misinformation on Vaccine forced me to accept my ignorance and I took the 4th Vaccine more on a gamble, assuming its better to have it than not have it.
After all corona infection itself has an equal correlation with Hart inflammation/problems.

I’m convinced that my WOE makes me 500 times more resilient to COV19 than any jab ever could.
The overweight, inflamed prediabetic self from a few years ago could have been in big trouble? who knows?

I’m tempted to try the Carnivore + 1 piece of fruit a day again. But its the same thing, the data around it is polluted by food industry money and I have no idea if fruit is actually good or bad ?

So I guess that I will have to accept that I don’t understand any of it yet.


I have a total opposite experience on zc forums. I find that when the answer is ‘eat more meat’ that is usually the truth on what it takes to correct an issue many are having. Remember ‘newbies’ are in a different realm of transition than someone with yrs into this and their responses will be way diff. than someone say, 5-6 yrs posting ‘an issue’ they are having so…most newbies come in with ‘old dieting baggage’ in the brain and still want to ‘restrict’ food intake and more so answers are gonna vary. I find my zc forums totally invaluable to me LOL but we all have diff. experiences for sure in forums :slight_smile: I also try all forums and weed out those that suit me best. Not all zc forums are created equal, of course the ones who eat seasonal fruit and suck down honey and say they are carnivore HAHA

Carnivore can actually show us med issues once we heal more and some med issues then can glaringly stand out and have to be handled by real medicine also. No eating plan fixes everything for sure.

Who we become on carnivore is just as important as where we came from and what things we can heal and repair but then, after what repair we do get, who are we then? very personal to each of us of course.

---------------simple day. defrosting burger and dinner I am thinking just some shrimp in alfredo sauce maybe. No food is calling my name. I can upon waking think…oh yea I want…but this morn it was blank. I do have to hit store for a few items I need so will check meat dept. Something might jump into my cart and I will cook it up and hound it down :slight_smile:

(Karen) #278

Hahaha I yes, however I rarely feel the need to go back to bed during the day and my days are so full of this n that I don’t think I would ever get he time lol. Buy definitely a good thing being able to get out of bed if I can’t sleep and have half n hour or so downstairs knowing I can catch up if need be in the morning. I save my early mornings for my reading and don’t really like to sacrifice that but I can cut it short if need be and return to some more reading in the afternoon. I just prefer he morning natural light to read. X

(Karen) #279

Lovingyour enamel orchid, its beautiful and you capture its colour fabulously with you camera. Of course it is one of my favourite colours, !20221122_120136 the first proper dance dress I made for a big ball we went to in Liverpool, at St Georges Hall. The floor is covered with wood panels with a chunk of toughened glass you can look through to see the original tiled floor underneath. Once a year the remove the wood panelling to show the floor in all its original glory. Usually displayed for a week but no one can walk on it it has to be viewed from the top gallery. You can Google it and view it, its very beautiful.

I think walking along the sand and your woodland walk would do so much for your wellbeing so it was good that your were home during the episode! Do you ever get these episodes when you’re at work? If not perhaps they only occur when you ‘wind down’ at home?