Very good rant… a good reminder to all of us who have found OUR right way… it might be the absolute wrong way for others. Gotta be careful slinging those rigid rules around willy nilly.
Keto is an extremely diverse woe/diet. There are carnivores and vegan ketoers but even omnivore ketoers have very different styles. My original keto was basically the only style I could do: vegetarian, generous high-carb (40g net, way way higher total but I don’t care about that) and I half lived on sweet desserts out of necessity (but I liked them until they got old and boring).
I can’t supplement stuff, it’s against something in me. I had to take maybe 250mg magnesium a month on my on/off vegetarian keto, I never need that on my on/off carnivore-ish and it’s better anyway.
Yes, many people consider their woe carnivore even with tiny off items. Close enough.
I am safe and like extras so I label my default woe carnivore-ish but if everyone would do that, almost no one would be carnivore while the not quite carnivores would be way more carnivore than almost all carnivore animals, they eat more plants than human carnivores… Okay, maybe human carnivore label has nothing to do with animal diets though I would think they can’t be disconnected…
But yep, it’s a tad unfair that vegans shouldn’t touch animals while carnivore may eat many plants Or not, I don’t know and I don’t care, honestly.
Indeed, very much. Many people’s carnivore would be my secondary, somewhat failed room 101… I would so hate it. (My real room 101 if someone doesn’t know yet, is low-fat. Especially HCLF but low-fat already sounds horrible to me. Whatever it means. I define it as below 80g fat a day. Maybe 70, 80 is still okay sometimes.) I would hate meat all the time and forced to eat… Ew. And I would miss my eggs And more.
My own carnivore(-ish) forced on me for long, that could work. I just can’t do it by myself yet.
One of my pet peeves. Posts that claim absolutes like it is written in stone. My own household of 2 is a prime example. If I ate the way my huband ate (we are both keto) I would still be fat. He has never been fat, never exercised more than me and always ate more. And until he went keto he was eating burgers with buns and fries and pasta and rice and… but he was becoming a TOFI and he realizes that now.
@Paul, you’re doing exactly what I “preach”: getting your needs from food, instead of supplements.
Chris Kresser has found that even with a nutritious diet dialled in to a lifestyle that the food stuffs many of us eat in these contemporary times still result in deficiencies that require supplements.
I recently re-listened to Paul Saladino’s podcast about why he added fruit and honey to his diet. His reasoning sounds very similar to what I went through with the heart palpitations. I have added more carbs to my diet, and my body is much happier, heart palpitations pretty much gone except for a few flip-flops every once in a while. My digestive tract is also happier. My son, who also tried carnivore for a few years also ran into the heart palpitation trouble and he is only 29 years old. He also solved the problem by adding some carbs back into his diet.
What I found a little troubling, though, is that Paul Saladino actually seems to be anti-keto now, as well.
I dumped him long ago but now you are sayin’ he is spewing out anti-keto stuff? Like what is he saying mostly? Advocate of upping carbs and eating ALL in moderation? Maybe coming out with his own ‘diet’ stuff to buy like Deal a Meal from Richard Simmons or his own weight watchers club? Hmmmm, just too wild. What ya reading on what he is saying now…I don’t even wanna go check him out on the net anymore, I am like so over this guy HAHA
I see posts all the time about how we evolved from a meat-only diet and we don’t “need” carbs.
Well, I am of the opinion that some have “evolved” past a meat-only diet and some DO need a small amount of carbs to remain healthy. To think our bodies aren’t very adaptable flies in the face of how our immune system reacts to “invaders”.
I’ve seen a theory that some of the people who have had issues with carnivore and went back to eating carbs ate too much liver and the like, and then needed vitamin C to overcome the very high vitamin A content. Paul Saladino was eating a TON of liver.
Don’t know whether it’s true, but it’s at least plausible.
Also, Amber O’Hearn said some people who have thyroid issues on carnivore … don’t eat enough. One woman who said carnivore trashed her thyroid, she since increased the amount she ate, got her thyroid working again, and has retracted everything.
While I’m still of the opinion, we don’t “need” carbs, I still eat some of them.
agree. you do you. you eat what suits you only. after that the body reaction is key to what level you hit on carb intake and from what foods.
simple as that. All in carnivores are here for their specific reasons thru med issues and food gut issues and reactions to plant based and we know who we are and need this lifestyle but many can walk back into lc land.
again who ya are with mind, body and soul reigns key here on all of it.
There’s something about berries & honey outside the keto world. I know of 3rd generation doctor who has an autoimmune disorder. Berries & honey are his only exception to his carnivore diet. He gravitated towards this way of dieting because of his studying of the evolution of phytonutrients.
For me personally, they are a bit strange. I grow berries and have access to lots of wild berries. I can eat buckets of berries without too many issues. Seems like I can get with over 100g of carbs from raw honey without hardcore issues.
50g of added sugar and I’m sick for a week at best. Seizures aren’t out of the question. Honey and berries really stick out to me. Glad other folks are shining a light on this keto abnormality.
for me a few berries and that sugar hit would and has derailed me off plan and backtracked me horribly…hence off ‘all sugar’ for this person.
interesting you do so well on them as VE has put some back and did fine also and actually felt better but I also think like you ‘a low GI thing like a berry’ would be my first try back, but for me it was a 0 go on that.
again, who we are and I don’t think you can explain or anyone can for that matter why you can add back XYZ and do fine while another can’t which is why we gotta be our own N-1 in all this and base it on food reactions/invasions and/or qualifying fab foods that do work for us and only give us better and take nothing from our health.
interesting thoughts on that from your post.
I wish I could eat a bucketload of berries always like them. but you also said ‘without too many issues’ so where is the berry line for ya and what can it trigger at some point for you? just wondering.
Humans started developing lactose tolerance around 8,000 years ago, give or take. That is pretty recent in human evolution. But, not every human today has lactose tolerance. It is mostly people of European descent and some tribes in Africa. So, if we totally went by what we evolved to eat 200,000 or more years ago, we technically should not eat dairy, but many of us can.
Plant foods have been in our diets for longer. What’s not to say that some portion of the population has evolved to eat certain plant foods? And… just like not everyone is lactose tolerant, it could be that not everyone is plant tolerant.
For me, I tried eating more on carnivore to see if it solved my troubles. It did not. I was not overloading organ meat. One could most likely say I didn’t eat enough of them. I’m somewhere between 50-100 grams of carbs a day. Most days on the 50 gram end. Its that really enough nutrients from the fruit to provide what I may have been lacking on carnivore? It does seem to be enough to help me hold onto my electrolytes.
wow no idea you are hitting that high on carb intake and DOING SO WELL…more darn power to ya VE in working it out for you truly!!
wish I could be you but you always gave all to your N-1s and found you and I always love that about your forward progression!!!
a very personal physical body issue you are working out for you…just so happy you are progressing to suit you and feel great!
When I had honey the last time (last December, maybe?) I noticed it’s just pure sugar to me. I may get away with a few grams but that’s about it. It’s sugar and a very pure one (as I tolerate fruits somewhat better). My body only handles animal sugars well. Using fat helps but it has its limits. Sugar alone? I become borderline sugar poisoned from a very small amount sometimes. Or whatever is it when I feel I had sugar and it feels bad.
And I am a healthy one and I can handle a ton of added sugar, I mean, I survive and don’t feel pain afterwards but I surely feel I overdid it. And pain would arrive if I kept at it.
But my body doesn’t want a sugary woe and isn’t shy to tell me. Barred true necessity, it refuses to accept a too bad woe. In need it shuts up and use whatever is available as far as I can tell but if there is a better option, it nudges me to grab that. It may indulge me for a while but its tolerance regarding quick sugars isn’t huge. Honey doesn’t feel different, I wonder why it’s not the same for some people…
If I added back things and I would care about what my body likes to handle (and not what I desire I usually add fruits, first of all but it’s not what my body likes), sugars would be the last. Starches would come before but it still makes little sense… Legumes would be better but sweeteners and gluten would be the first ones as they never felt bad and they are very useful when I get bored of my carni food. I have non-physical problems with them (like sweeteners aren’t food so I don’t want to use them if possible) but if I consider things, they are the potentially very useful and pretty harmless things to add…
IDK if GI matters to me noticeably, I never felt that but as my body can handle pretty much carbs compared to many other people, maybe that’s why I just can’t notice the difference. Jasmine rice (super high GI so of course it’s my fav) is normal starch to me so I handle it way better than most fruits… But lower-carb fruits are fine, it’s true I am unable to eat much of those though… There are few fruits I ever compelled to eat galore (in my world, not what a normal people consider a big amount I suppose) and they are all very sugary. The (not real just people call them like that) berries are perfect in tiny amounts. Tiny amount is perfect for all fruits, I just can’t do it with some. But that isn’t often a problem, I only have one such fruit in my own garden and overdoing it once per year is fine, I don’t feel actually BAD just worse than without it.
I definitely get ZERO physical benefit from eating carbs. I would lose my sanity without some taste here and there and first of all, getting a break from my normal carni food (I still get bored of it too quickly) but I always feel my body doesn’t want (non-animal) carbs at all, ever, it’s happiest without them. I met several people who were different, of course, they are numerous.
Well… I did gain a few pounds back, but I decided the few pounds was worth not having a pounding heart and/or palpitations. When I think of it, 100 grams is probably waaaayyyy too high of an estimate. It is actually hard to eat a lot of carbs even from fruit. I’m most likely around the 50 gram mark. I should probably measure it some time.
People think they need carbs. They certainly want them and will justify them.
Personally I don’t need or want them. That said, some foods with carbs in small quantities have value in them, for me.
seen ya in pics, you are super fine VE!!! a few lbs is squat if you find that better health feeling for sure!
Interesting thread. There is so much we don’t know about the human body. Taking a hard line on most anything seems foolish. I think n=1 is our best bet. We can be guided by information sources we trust if we choose to but in the end it always comes down to our n=1 to tell us what we feel best doing.
One pet peeve is the talk about “going back” and “back tracking” and “going backward” when moving from carnivore to non-carnivore. If someone eats carnivore and doesn’t do well on it, they are moving forward when they eat differently and feel better eating that way. Carnivore isn’t a religion in which you lose your salvation by stepping off “The Path”. Someone choosing to eat non-carnivore after trying carnivore shouldn’t affect those who choose to eat carnivore, regardless of the reason and how long they gave it.
Whilst things like adaptation are real, we do not know enough about the human body to know whether adaptation will resolve issues or not. A long enough adaptation period seems to resolve many issues when looking at anecdotal evidence, but many isn’t all and nor is it for all people. So it’s probably more accurate to say a long enough adaptation period will resolve many issues for some people, with what is “long enough” varying person to person.
I think it’s safe to say the food we eat today doesn’t have the same nutrients as food humans sourced in the past. What affect that has on us is unclear. I think this might be another n=1 issue. Some people seem to do fine on a non-optimal diet, others notice deficiencies and excesses and foods that affects them keenly and need to address the issues.
I think it’s also possible humans who eat a lot of unhealthy “western food” think how we feel (energy level, cognition, physical symptoms etc) is “normal”, and it’s not until we make some significant changes that some folks discover the normal we accepted was actually quite sub optimal. But how many of us know what truly optimal feels like for us? And how many of us have the time, energy, money, and ability to sift through all of the information claiming to speak to this issue to find out? And even then, how much will end up being n=1 and all we can do is say “this is what worked for me”. Which is all any of us should say on pretty much every issue we discuss on this forum, along with links to and discussions about various research and others’ n=1 experiences.
By baby bees though?