MARCH 2019 IF/EF Chat ALL WELCOME

(Allie) #262

23.5 hours and not even feeling it so all good. Starting to feel cold now but am at home so have turned the heating up and going to do an hour of yoga to help me relax.

#263

Another good option to hear Megan Ramos and Jason Fung is the Low Carb MD podcast by Drs. Brian Lenzkes and Tro Kalayjian. They’ve joined on a few episodes.

(KCKO, KCFO) #264

Ending my current fast at 66.5 hrs. started out as a 48er. I was going to do two 48ers, with a refeed in between, but got invited to a dear friend’s birthday party and I will be making a keto cheesecake to take over for that one. So I’m done for a few days.

(Herb Martin) #265

Fasting for more then 2 days: Dr. Jason Fung (read his book and watch his videos at an essential part of your education in fasting) offers 2-weeks as the time it takes to clear a Fatty Liver, Fatty Pancreas, & reset baseline insulin levels.

This time is intended to offer an immediate health reset.

14-days: YES, I just completed a 14-day fast based on knowing Dr. Fung’s protocol for new patients.

I dropped 29 1/2 lbs (some of which I have already gained back but that’s water weight; it’s clear I lost a LOT of adipose tissue: FAT.)

Muscles: Muscle mass is lost LAST, only when your fat percentage gets down to about 3%. For reference, world class marathon runners are at about 6% and body builders are at about 10%.

Your body is well-designed enough to use fat stores as intended first.

16/8, everyday? That’s up to you but yes, a 16/8 OMAD (One Meal A Day) is an excellent way to just live according to Dr. Fung.

Also watch Dr. Annette Bosworth (Dr. Boz) and her book “Anyway You Can”. Dr. Mindy Pelz has a “Resetters” group on Facebook that teaches a variety of different fasting methods.

One idea is that you try to get the 14-day fast done BUT there are many choices to substitute: a couple 7-day fasts, 5-days, monthly 3-day fasts, weekly (or twice weekly) 1-day fasts, every day OMAD etc…

As to abbreviations, just ask. OMAD, IF (intermittent fasting), EF (extended fasting, anything much over 1-day), there are a lot.

Just ask.

Finally: Keto and carnivore plus fasting make an extremely powerful tool set.

You can use these as your sole diets or to ‘recover’ from transgressions of birthday cake at weddings and treats at holidays.

(Andi loves space, bacon and fasting. ) #266

Is he just keto? Or does he have fasting resources too?

Well done! :tada: That sounds terrific and I’m glad you feel great!!! :muscle::purple_heart:

I had a grueling week and I have survived in one piece!! Also, the two events I had to put on yesterday went amazing. I ended up on the Instagram story of a celebrity (I won’t say who, but it’s not someone you would have heard of anyway unless you are under 25). By the way, I had to figure out how to get an Instagram and then I had to Google “what is an Instagram story” to figure out how to see this video. At any rate I’m really pleased by my progress so far but there is no mirror more vivid than video of yourself. I still have work to do, and that’s okay because I love keto and I love fasting and I have the rest of my life to just get healthier and healthier.

I’m feasting for at least one more day and then will start another fast on Sunday.

Happy Friday everyone!! :heart_eyes_cat:

(KCKO, KCFO) #267

He is low carb, but has lots of information that applies to keto. Dr. Fung has a number of videos on his site, along with Dr. Westman and many other important people in the low carb/keto universe. Tons of information on the site, even documentaries about sugar, fats, etc. You can just sign up for the free two week trial and have a look around. Right now the Low Carb Denver 2019 videos are available to watch with the free accout, like everything else there. Fasting info is readily available, intermittent, extended, and timed eating window is also covered.

(Allie) #268

I decided to break my fast at 36 hours, could’ve easily kept going but am planning more fasting next week so don’t want to push too hard just yet and stopped before it became a struggle.

1440 calorie breakfast which will likely be OMAD, unless I’m hungry again within eight hours which isn’t likely.

#269

Brought things to a close at 134 hours – didn’t have anything physical telling me to stop but I was really craving some sausages I’d recently bought. Had a seriously good breakfast.

(Windmill Tilter) #270

Extended fasting (greater than 24hrs) gets more difficult the lower your bodyfat % is. It’s not necessary for anyone of course, but it is quite effective.

The amount of lean mass loss that occurs during extended fasting rises inversely with body fat %. It’s a great way to go from from 150kg to 100kg, but not a particularly good way to go from 75kg to 70kg to polish a “6 pack”. When you get down around 10% bodyfat, you’re headed towards losing over 30% lean mass as a % of your BMR (it varies by individual). Dr. Fung said that “if you’re obese you don’t need to worry about losing too much lean mass”; “Obese” is the key word in that sentence. Look at this chart from Elia et al. and you’ll see why he added that caveat!

On the other hand, time restricted eating (16:8 for example) is great for anybody at any weight.

Good luck with your next 9 weeks and KCKO!

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(Jeff) #271

What is KCKO ?

(Windmill Tilter) #272

KCKO is Keep Calm and Keto On.

Fat loss, and other metabolic benefits aren’t always linear and aren’t always immediately apparent on keto. Sometimes folks will get stuck a few months into keto on a multi-month stall, only to drop a ton of weight a little down the road. Getting stuck in a stall can be really frustrating, and it’s helpful to remember that regardless of what we see on the scale, or in the mirror, we’re making progress every day.

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #273

KCKO - Keep Calm Keto On!

(RossanaF) #274

So are you saying that 3 five day fasts could also have all the benefits that a 14 day fast has? Or the “resetting” part does not get done with shorter fasts?

(Herb Martin) #275

Not exactly because I don’t know what the equivalences are (or the exchange rate), and I am not sure that even someone like Dr. Fung KNOWS that either.

I’ve heard him say he doesn’t even know for certain which combinations are “best” – he tends to like the 14-day up front (medically supervised) to get the health reset I believe, but that is just one criteria.

He has made it pretty clear (and I am pretty sure the other fasting Docs would generally agree in at least principle) that you can do it “anyway you can” which is even the title of Dr. Boz’ book.

14-day for those who can and need to get health reset quickly (or are impatient.)

Restricted feeding 13-hour or greater fasts for those can don’t wish to (or can’t) do more.

Then stay with whatever, for as long as it takes.

It also can vary as you gain more experience and get your carbs cleaned out (easier to fast, less hunger generally, when your body hasn’t seen a carb in months.)

I haven’t eaten an appreciable carb AT ALL since starting Carnivore diet in early July, so doing 12-days, carnivore for 5 days, then 14 days fasting was pretty much a cheat for me.

Most other people will work quite a bit harder than was necessary for me.

Maybe one day we’ll have a way to optimize but now we just use what we have and do the best we can.

I do know that I have had trouble in the past – LONG after reaching goal weight, drifting back up over years.

With these new tools (carnivore and fasting) added to keto, I believe this doesn’t need to be a problem ever again.

Instead of falling out of keto to some poor diet, I’ll just fall back to carnivore which is an incredibly rich and perhaps even healthier diet (for me.)

Then use Fasting if my weight starts creeping up.

Knowing you can fast for extended periods is a tremendously empowering piece of knowledge.

(Windmill Tilter) #276

Like Herb mentioned, nobody really knows whether longer is better or shorter is better. It’s quite possible that a couple of 5 day fast are better than a 14 day fasts depending on your goals and risk factors. Dr. Fung says that he’s been moving away from the long fasts (14 day) except in extreme circumstances (non healing diabetic sores).

Personally, I’m a big fan of extended fasting. I’ve fasted 37 days out of the last 74. I feast for 3 days, then I fast for three days, then I lift weights a little. Then I start over. I can’t tell whether I’m feasting or fasting most of the time. I suspect I’m getting enough autophagy! :yum:

I’m a member over at Dr. Fung’s IDM clinic, and the recommendation there is two 42hr fasts or one 72hr fast each week. In addition, there’s a hosted extended fast once per month that lots of folks join. We’re not even allowed to discuss fasts over 10 days. Could be a liability thing. Nobody knows.

“Reset” is just a figure of speech like “I’m a new man”. If you want to track your autophagy levels, the best way I know is the Glucose Ketone Index (GKI). All you need for this is a Keto Mojo ($100). You test your glucose, then you test your ketones, and divide the two numbers. You check your GKI against a chart and see how deep the autophagy is. I don’t know a lot about it, but there are some good discussion threads here if you’d like to learn more.

Here is a chart from the intrepid @Karim_Wassef, who captured his GKI a few times per day over the course of the 19 day fast he just finished a few days ago. He hit peak autophagy at around 5 days. Everybody is different though, some folks can hit it in 2 days. If you had brain cancer, a longer fast is obviously better, because you spend more time at the deepest level of autophagy and there is nothing in the world more dangerous to you than that cancer. Fasting is poorly understood however, and I’m not sure it makes sense to assume that something so powerful has only positive long term effects on the human body. I think it makes sense to align fasting goals with fasting duration and frequency. Everybody has different goals!

(Liz ) #277

Update: I was 9 pounds down on the last day of my 93 hour fast and only regained 2 during 4 days of two meals a day and a big feast up Saturday night. This has not been the norm on my fasts so it has to be the lack of cream in my diet. Either from reducing calories on days I’m supposedly fasting but still using cream in my coffee as a crutch, or too much fat from that, or trace carbs, or an intolerance to cream, or all of that! Who knows?

Anyway, I’m currently 19 hours in on my next EF, aiming for 72 or 92, whatever feels right. Very curious to see what results I get on the scale this time. Not expecting to go down another 9 pounds though!! That seemed like a course correction.

I’m primarily fasting for weight loss right now, hopefully autophagy comes along as well, and as always, to reverse my hyperinsulinemia by lowering my basal insulin level over time.

Love the discussions going on in this thread & hearing everyone’s n=1
KCFO!

#278

Congrats! … I actually ended up doing OMAD all last week, even though I had wanted to throw in some Fasting. It just didn’t work out with all the stuff I had going on. … But showed I’m down -4 lbs. this week, but this may also have to do with me bouncing back some finally from the recently surgery healing? But either way, I’m planning to Fast after tonight’s meal, and looking at doing the whole week. I was thinking it would be a good way to finish off the Dairy, Nut & Chocolate free Month. - But I am interested to see if a longer Fast, whilst being Dairy free, would show better results. (So glad to hear of your success.) :slight_smile:

(Liz ) #279

Thank you! Will be interested to hear if you think there’s a dairy-free difference for you.

I’ve heard Megan Ramos suggest OMAD is good for maintenance but not so much ongoing weightloss, possibly due to the chance of undereating & risking slowing the metabolism? Not totally sure. But for myself I find if I OMAD I tend to binge so I’ve mostly been doing TMAD. But it sounds like you lost weight fine with the one meal, so, again, n=1 :smile:

(KCKO, KCFO) #280

Went to a birthday party today. I had more sugar via berries than I have had in the last months combined. So I am going to do a series of 36 hr. fasts this week… I finished my refeeding from the Zornfast the last two days so I should be able to do at least 2 rounds, maybe even three over the next week. .

#281

If you’ve ever seen any of my full plates in the ‘What did you Keto today’ thread, you’d see I definitely don’t under-eat. :smile: … Maybe it’s why it’s been so good for me? Can’t say, but I do indeed throw in the occasional 2nd meal just to keep it mixed up. Usually at least once a week, sometimes two. But then go some weeks eating two meals a days, and throw in some OMAD’s. … So yeah, I do keep it guessing the best I can, and it’s working for now. :slight_smile: Thanks.