Maintain on 72 hr fast plus OMAD for 4 days after?

(Masterp77557 ) #1

Is it possible to maintain on 72 hr fast for 3 days and then 2MAD for 4 days after? I am not doing it for weight loss but the incredible benefits i get from being fasted. My anxiety and depression is gone after being fasted on 72 hours. My whole mental being feels incredible and I feel free. I mean Intermittent Fasting is good but when I go longer it like the difference between a cat and a lion. I just want to make sure it is something sustainable. So far I have gone 2 months like this.

Part of the reason is also that I am trying to find a job since my business has crippled since COVID 19. So I live frugal but at the same time I try and eat nutrious foods as much as possible. Unfortunately I can’t follow strict Keto so to make up for it I fast instead. So far I feel great but I don’t want to fall into the category of too skinny.

Let me know.

(Joey) #2

It’s really impossible for anyone here to provide a definitive answer as there are so many variables at play.

These include:

  • How much of various foods you’re actually eating?
  • What “maintain” means to you (no change in weight, muscle, waistline…)?
  • How active you are (i.e., consuming the energy you’re ingesting)?
  • Your resting metabolic rate?
  • Sleep, stress, and related non-dietary variables?
  • etc…

What might work for you for the time being might no longer work for you the same way in a few weeks, months, years.

In short: You’ll need to experiment on yourself if you want answers.

Meanwhile, I’d suggest you eat when hungry. Refrain when not hungry. :vulcan_salute:

(Masterp77557 ) #4

I understand but what I forgot to add in the question is if I can eat refined carbs when doing something like this. I know I need to experiment but I just wanted to know if anyone had experience in this. Our culture is obsessed with weight loss but fasting isn’t necessarily for weight loss. it is a side effect of fasting.

(Joey) #5

You can eat whatever you want.

Personally, the only carbs I ingest (2MAD) for the past 3 years are those trace amounts in my green leaf veggies. My energy level has remained awesome.

That’s me. Back to you…

When it comes to ketosis, it’s the refined carbs that are the most problematic.

If your objective in restricting carbs is to address a particular health, metabolic, or energy balance issue, then I would simply encourage you to evaluate your food choices in that context.

It’s your body - enjoy it with an eye on the long haul and you’ll best minimize regrets. :vulcan_salute:

#6

You can, but after a 3 day fast and a couple days 2MAD, you’re basically looking at CKD at that point. I’d track everything you eat and make sure you’re getting in everything you need from a micronutrient level.

I’d also try to track down why you feel so good when fasted, yet don’t when you’re eating. The answer is in your diet.

Since doing a CMP normally, then after your fast won’t be cheap (not terribly expensive either) a quick test may be simply grab some exogenous ketones, slam those down while you’re eating for a couple days and see if that gives you the same feel. Normally, outside of doing keto as a medical intervention there’s no real benefit to keeping ketones really high, but they would be after you’ve been fasting. I’d rule that one out. If that worked, there’s some tweaks you could make to somewhat replicate it. No reason you can’t get in everything you need, on a budget or not, I’m cheap as hell! Doing that constantly, I’d fear for your metabolic rate.

(Allie) #7

Why would you want to when these are the things most likely to be causing the very mental issues you’re trying to avoid?

(Masterp77557 ) #9

didn’t say i will exclusively eat refined carbs. I said I would like to mixed them up into my diet since I spend 72 hours a week fasted which is a substantial amount of time. I am also trying to bulk so I was hoping to use the refined carbs as fuel. I would eat things like rice porridge and only after a workout because the 2mad is within a 4-6 hour window. I mean I practically spend half the year and more fasted. So I need to be balanced, else I will be too perfect. lol

(Masterp77557 ) #10

That is what I was thinking. It is kind of like a CKD but I would include veggies and healthy food. I would just like the refined carbs as a boost.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #11

What would be the reason for doing so? I mean, apart from a desire to (re)gain all the disadvantages of an elevated insulin level?

Seriously, if you have a reason to need to raise your insulin, then go ahead. But given that our muscles prefer fatty acids over glucose, forcing them to shift back from fatty-acid metabolism to glycolysis seems a bit counter-productive, especially after the effort it took to become fat-adapted in the first place.

(Masterp77557 ) #12

Insulin is a major anabolic hormone and is known to support muscle growth. I am a lean person who does this prolonged fast weekly because of the benefits, at the same time I don’t want to lose too much. So during my eating window I would eat some bread with rice porridge after a workout.

(Joey) #13

I, too, am a lean person. I do (rowing) cardio daily and HIIT zone strength training 3x weekly. I can’t see any good reason to eat refined carbs or to try to goose up my insulin levels to promote muscle growth.

I share this only to explain that your rationale confuses me. But back to your original question: I’m still not quite sure what you’re trying to “maintain.”

In asking for guidance from folks on this forum, can you please clarify your objectives a bit? Is it that you simply don’t want to lose weight?

If that’s it in a nutshell, then gorge on everything and anything in sight and stop exercising. Case closed. :wink:

If it’s something else, or some combination of goals, I’m still not clear on why refined carbs are a good idea as a means to achieve them.

(Masterp77557 ) #14

OBJECTIVES:
-Maintain weight and/or build a bit of muscle.
Fast and feast basically. I have done it so far without any problems. I saw a video by Thomas Lauer where he talks about eating refined carbs on omad. This is to gain muscle.

(Joey) #15

Thanks for the context. Then I’ll suggest something based on my own personal experience as a rather lean guy in my mid-60s …

Eat no refined carbs. Period.

Instead, eat sufficient protein and healthy fats to your full satisfaction (one or two meals daily). Work out as hard as you can tolerate, including cardio and HIIT-to-failure strength.

You will build muscle. You will maintain your lean physique. You will feel great.

Don’t know T. Lauer’s theories on eating refined carbs, but I can’t imagine what science it’s actually based on. It defies everything I’ve read from reliable, peer-reviewed scientific papers about refined carbs. They’re bad for long-term health and fitness by all accounts I’ve come across.

Here’s a source that might be of interest for what you’re trying to do:

Dr. Ted Naiman’s P/E diet and workout book. Chock full of simple, plain guidance for what it sounds like you’re trying to accomplish. And he’s a fan of intelligent fasting, too.

I wouldn’t be pushing my views on you, but you’ve asked. Sharing is caring. :vulcan_salute:

#16

Might want to investigate Stan Efferding’s Vertical diet. The TKD seems to work for bulking for some.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #17

So you have a reason to stimulate insulin secretion and go out of ketosis. If you don’t have insulin-resistance to reverse, then that’s not a problem.

Of course, the other growth hormones still work when insulin is low, so it’s not clear why it would be required to raise insulin. It seems to me that, as long as you are consuming foods abundant in branched-chain amino acids and stressing your muscles properly, they should grow nicely.

(Robin) #18

When you say 72 hours a week fasted… break that down for me, please. One long 72 hour fast? Or a certain number of hours each day (IF: intermittent fasting)?

I think many here have one meal per day, so easily fast 72+ per week.

I eat one meal a day (late lunch time-ish). In my youth, I used to go multiple days without eating. It was both spiritual and fashionable. :slightly_smiling_face:

I do remember feeling euphoric much of the time. When eating, I was a home grown vegan. Also lived in a commune and used various substances, so that may have played a part too.
Good times.

I got off track, didn’t I?
Back to the question… describe your fasting, please.

(Masterp77557 ) #20

72 straight fasting. as in prolongeed 72 hr fast, this is followed ny 2 mad 20:4…

(Allie) #21

Carbs aren’t needed for muscle growth, I’ve experimented over the years and do just fine without them. No ups and downs from carbs, no fat gain, just steady muscle gains.

Sure you can do TKD or CKD and see if it suits you, but if the thing that’s most important to you is the stability of your mental health, then neither are necessary.

I just can’t get your thinking with and EF followed by 2MAD including carbs which will undo the stability you’ve given yourself with the EF. The same stability could easily be achieved just by eating keto in a surplus with a protein focus.

(Masterp77557 ) #22

ok second question,
will my body resupply itself with fat reserves?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #23

If you eat enough carbohydrate to put your insulin level over the threshold (which Ralph DeFronzo and his team have demonstrated to be just under 25 ÎĽU/mL), then you will put your body back into fat storage mode.

The key is the ratio of insulin to glucagon. When it is low (that is, when we eat no more than a small amount of carbohydrate), the body is ketogenic and fatty-acid metabolism predominates. When the ratio is high (such as when we too much carbohydrate), fat-storage and glycolysis predominate.

Eating fat has no appreciable effect on insulin, beyond the minimum required for survival. But protein in a high-carb diet raises the insulin/glucagon ratio considerably, putting us further into fat-storage mode, whereas on a low-carb diet, the insulin/glucagon ratio remains low when we eat protein, because the insulin secreted is matched by an equivalent glucagon response.