DAMN! I though I was high in the high 100’s / low-mid 200’s! Have you noticed a difference in your lifts being that high if you were lower at some point?
Lowering Protein
CatGirl
(Janelle)
#23
Just a tad bit - I appreciate the help. It’s just not as easy as it seems like it should be. I follow a plan - eating to the macros given to me by a doctor. That might be complicating things but I’m am losing weight - just trying to work out the kinks.
Bellyman
(Brian)
#24
I am sorry Janelle. I sometimes lose track of who is who. You probably said a bunch of stuff that gave a lot more context in various places that I didn’t put together when I posted.
Sometimes I get too chatty. It’s not meant as anything other than wanting the best for others. I guess at times it doesn’t come out that way. 
Sincerely, I hope you find answers that work for you.
Peace
Regina
(Empress of the Unexpected)
#25
Just my experience. As a kid I resisted eating. School nurse had to come around at lunchtime and make me drink my milk. After age fifteen could eat whatever. Gained twenty pounds with pregnancy. Gained 40 with menopause. I have also worried about the protein thing. But at this point I just eat keto foods. 8 months in have totally lost my appetite. No need to count anything, today was bacon, cabbage and sunflower seeds. And I’m stuffed. Keto has kinda re-activated my childhood anorexia. In the beginning I did not believe that Keto could kill my appetite, it did. Just keep carbs under 20.
PaulL
(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing)
#26
How much protein are you eating? An ammonia smell is a sign of overloading the body with protein. Try sticking to 1.0-2.0 grams of protein a day per kilogram of lean body mass. That should not overtax the body’s ability to convert ammonia into urea. So keep your carbohydrate low, eat a reasonable amount of protein, and eat fat to satiety. That will allow your body to set your appetite to a level that will allow it to metabolize all the fat you eat, plus any excess fat there may be in your adipose tissue.
Ilana_Rose
(mole person)
#27
There is no conundrum really. The ketogenic diet is a moderate protein diet. You are only supposed to be eating the amount of protein that your body requires for maintenance functions. If you were eating correctly, before you went on a keto diet, you would have been eating this amount of protein anyhow. There is no need to increase your protein over and above the amount you had before keto, assuming you were having a healthful amount of protein.
For me, this is about 1 gram of protein per kilogram of lean mass. I have no trouble increasing muscle mass with resistance training at this level.
Once you are fat adapted, you do not need to fear eating too much fat as long as you are able to stop eating when you are no longer hungry. People become confused about what the magic of the ketogenic diet is. It’s not that you can eat endless amounts of fat and not gain weight, it’s that you will not be hungry for more food than required if you eat low carbohydrates and high-fat, once you are fat adapted.
SlowBurnMary
#30
It’s interesting when considering the protein servings subject - esp on days when I do IF+keto.
Dr. Layman says if we eat less than 30 grams protein per meal, it basically doesn’t get synthesized, and instead is stored as fat or glucose.
Phinney & Volek’s definition of “moderate” protein is way more animal protein than I’m used to or enjoy naturally - and I wonder at the fat-adapted small eating window thing’s impact. On both my IF and non-IF days, my eating window is at most 8 hours, often only 4-6 hours, in which I generally eat only 2 substantial meals and hardly ever 3.
Fitting the recommended protein of some 80g. into two meals isn’t “fun” for me - and it’s my sensibility that when one has a smaller eating window, one requires less protein.
OTOH, The chiropractor Berg aims for the low side 20 grams protein per meal - and says he typically eats between 45-60 grams protein per day.
Takeaway is that I guess breakfast porridges that involve coconut/almond flour, nuts & seeds and yogurt for 15 grams of protein are considered useless by Dr. Layman.
And, none of the aforementioned dudes take into consideration female hormonal states - which vary according to times of life and stress - beyond just being female! IE, postpartum, menopause, post-menopause, extreme work/family stress, etc.
I would like to see a full-range comparison of all the LCHF/keto experts (not just MDs or chiros - but also keto nutritionists and other scientists) on protein combined with attention to hormonal profiles.
I enjoyed reading the article JohnH posted above - except that it lacks info from Cate Shanahan MD, Amy Berger MS, Nora Gelgaudus CNT, and others:
SlowBurnMary
#32
@PaulL He’s one of the research scientists cited in that above linked article - but he may not be LCHF/keto focused, so, it’s possible his work is totally irrelevant to ketogenic physiology (I sure hope so, because I rarely load up on 30 grams protein for my first meal of my two meal day… I am often what he calls “skewed” yet I am burning fat!). The video of the nutrition conference he addressed was sponsored by industrial dairy, so, he may well be funded by the food industry:
"Dr. Donald Layman, a former nutrition professor and research scientist at the University of Illinois has been specifically researching the effects of dietary protein on human health for three decades. Dr. Layman’s studies have indicated that optimal amounts of dietary protein play important roles in protein synthesis, cell signaling, hunger and satiety, metabolic temperature regulation and blood sugar regulation. These metabolic pathways are triggered by and dependent upon optimal amounts of protein intake and in particular, the amount of leucine , a branched chain amino acid.
In a paper published in 2009, Dr. Layman and his team provide guidelines about the importance of a daily protein requirement for adults based on per-meal consumption rather than daily totals:
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On a daily basis, Dr. Layman says that the total daily amount of protein eaten is not as important as ensuring that you get at least 30 grams of protein at each meal (about 4.5 ounces of meat, fish, poultry, or a scoop or two of whey protein powder) to maximize leucine availability. It is especially important to eat 30 grams of protein at breakfast, because this also sets the stage for reduced hunger the rest of the day.
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Consuming at least 30 grams of protein at each meal is critical because it triggers the insulin-mTOR metabolic pathway for skeletal muscle protein synthesis and mitochondrial biogenesis. This increase in protein synthesis and mitochondrial proliferation then increases thermogenesis (calorie burning). In fact, Dr. Layman says the energy expenditure of muscles involved in protein synthesis is greater than the expenditure when the muscle is doing intense exercise. This point is especially important for people wanting to lose fat (but not muscle) and for the elderly to prevent sarcopenia, which is muscle loss associated with old age.
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If you eat less than 30 grams of protein at each meal, there is no protein synthesis effect. The protein is then wasted as simple calories. It gets converted to glucose or fat.
PaulL
(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing)
#33
Huh! A lot of that makes sense, but I’m still having trouble with the fat-or-glucose part. Firstly, deaminating amino acids is not a pathway that the body favors, as I understand it, though there is always a certain amount of it taking place, which is one of the reasons protein is essential to the diet. I would have expected the amino acids above the amount necessary to make up for proteolysis to remain in the labile pool. Also, we know now that gluconeogenesis is demand-driven, not supply-driven, so perhaps that 2009 paper reflects the older understanding.
I’d also like to know why the minimum is 30 g/meal. I mean, why not 15, or 60?
I haven’t seen anything lately by Ron Rosedale, but I wonder what his reaction is to the idea that activating mTOR is a good idea.
At any rate, thanks, Mary, for the food for thought (so to speak, lol).
SlowBurnMary
#35
You’re welcome! I’m muddled about it all frankly.
Dr. Layman says “the total daily amount of protein eaten is not as important as ensuring that you get at least 30 grams of protein at each meal” and that would make sense in regards to ancestral diets and frequent fasting during much of the day. It means OMAD at 30 grams protein will restore and preserve muscle mass?
I guess there’s no harm in making sure I do get in 30g each meal of my two - instead of having lighter first meals of the day, except that it’s not as easy or fun… I like having a low-key 12-20g protein meal for my first meal - waaaaah, lol.
Keto6468
(Karen)
#36
This gorgeous little gal has a handle on the 30 g of protein, especially at breakfast but throughout the day as well. 30g is certainly required but might not be optimal. You might actually need a bit more. Especially if you are older. Morning is the most important for this protein load. Hoping this is the right podcast.
juice
(Running from stupidity)
#37
She is hot, indeed. But she’s also bothered to get a good photo taken of herself, which WAY too few people who should do so bother with.
PaulL
(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing)
#39
Awww, if you don’t want an extra egg and extra slice of bacon with your breakfast, I’ll take 'em! 
brownfat
(Todd Allen)
#40
This surely isn’t so absolute. First consider 30 grams of ingested protein will have a much smaller impact on serum amino acid levels in a large person than in a small one - so the threshhold protein level per meal probably depends on body size. Also the mTOR pathway involves insulin signaling and someone with insulin resistance likely needs more protein for an equivalent signal.
Second he is talking about protein stimulating muscle protein synthesis but there are many other uses for protein some far more critical than building muscle. The idea that if one doesn’t eat enough protein to stimulate muscle growth that the protein will be used for energy instead of more critical needs seems absurd.
And there are other pathways which stimulate muscle growth so even when protein is insufficient to strongly drive mTOR one can still trigger muscle protein synthesis through exercise such as resistance training.