Low Carb but low in saturated fat?

newbies
vegetables
(Richard Hanson) #12

Hi Luci,

The AHA has had it wrong for decades and I would not accept anything they recommend.

Humans have been eating saturated fats for, well for as long as there have been humans. What we have not been eating are polyunsaturated fats from sources such as soybeans and corn or even monounsaturated fats from olives.

I can not, in good conscience, help anyone eat such fats.

I am, however, happy to recommend a couple of great books:

  • The Big Fat Surprise - Nina Teicholz
  • Good Calories, Bad Calories - Gary Taubes

This is not meant as any kind of criticism of you, most certainly not. I was in this same place only a short few months ago and we have been told for a very long time that eating red meat, saturated animal fats, is a very bad idea. There truly is no reason to expect anyone not to believe that this is good advice, but it most certainly is not. Things are starting to change and countries like Sweden are already starting to overturn this long standing and misguided nutritional dogma. What is fantastic is just how much information is now becoming available.

Keto for Life!

Warmest Regards,
Richard

(Richard Hanson) #13

I would ask you not to trust anyone. Instead, I would make an effort to learn more, a lot more.

The American people have been eating what we have been told to eat for decades. Less fat, less animal fats and saturated fat, more fruits, vegetables, grains, and yet it must be obvious to everyone that we, as a people, are getting fatter and sicker. Perhaps instead of trusting scientists, you might consider thinking like a scientist, that is you might start asking questions such as why, if we eat what you tell us to eat, what you tell is is a “healthy” diet, why are we getting sicker?

Knowledge is power but the greatest impediment to gaining knowledge is first unlearning those things we believe that are not true.

Keto for Life!

Richard

(Jacob Wagner) #14

Okay here is my answer to your actual question.

1st, cut out breads, refined sugars, fruit, and pasta.
2nd eat 1-1.5 g of dietary protean for every 1kg of lean body mass

Beyond that, eat enough fat to be satisfied.

Personally I avoid eating vegetables or lean meats without adding fat to them. I do eat allot of chicken, but I add cream and butter to it. One of my favorite snacks recently is brocoli covered in butter and garlic.

If you want polyunsaturated fats then I guess you could use oil from soy, corn, canola, or seeds instead of cream, butter, olive oil, and tallow.

–Jacob

(Lucy) #15

Yeah, I am not going to become a conspiracy theorist just because the scientific consensus goes against my personal worldview. But you do you.

I am not qualified to interpret studies and neither are you, so…

(Doug) #16

Lucy, quoting from the article you linked to:

“One problem is that some researchers might use methodology that is not the best or most current for evaluating effects of dietary fats.”

Agreed. And then right in that same article it says, “In fact, the science says that coconut oil, which has mostly saturated fatty acids, raises your LDL cholesterol, which is linked with increased risk for heart disease.”

The problem here is that that is woefully incomplete, and often simply not true. There is more than one type of LDL cholesterol - there are different particle sizes of it, and that makes a vast difference. To state, in an unqualified manner, that in effect “LDL cholesterol is really bad for you - it raises your risk of heart disease” - no, this very often not true. There is a lot more to it than that.

It’s a great topic - lots for us all to learn, and hopefully - eventually - the medical community will get better at recognizing what all is going on, rather than engaging in excessive over-simplification.

(Richard Hanson) #17

Hi Lucy,

You don’t know me so I am quite certain that you have no idea at all if I am qualified to interpret studies or not. Nor am I asking you to trust my views, or the views of anyone. I am simply asking you to ask intelligent questions, to learn. Think Lucy, think for yourself, else you are just allowing other people to do your thinking for you. I don’t know anyone who is a competent logician that is in any danger of becoming a conspiracy theorist.

Why are you afraid of learning?

Warmest Regards,
Richard

(Lucy) #18

Why are you afraid of being wrong Richard? So tell me, are you a registered dietitian or an active nutrition researcher from a prestigious university? If you are, I can’t find your qualifications online.

So I will stick with what the actual experts say on the topic, and not what someone who is unqualified to interpret studies thinks. I listed at least 4 or 5 organizations who use expert consensus. I think that is all I really need to make an adequate decision on whether or not saturated fat, or bleach, or asbestos, is unhealthy.

(Lesley) #19

All due respect @tnsg you are on a keto forum so not likely to find anyone/many who shares your views on the fats aspect of the diet. Everyone is just trying to be helpful and share what they know.

I wish you all the best in finding the right diet for you.

(Doug) #20

:slightly_smiling_face: Lucy, generalized trust therein is often not rewarded.

(Richard Hanson) #21

Hi Luci,

As you admit that your “are not qualified to interpret studies” how exactly are you somehow magically qualified to pick which experts are right and which ones are wrong? It is a fact, an objective reality, that there are “experts”, dietary scientists, that disagree with the standard dietary recommendations of the AHA. It is an objective fact that the Swedish government has now officially rejected exactly that low fat dogma after an extensive two year review of 16,000 studies.

Please tell me how you are so certain that I am wrong now and that I was not wrong a meager six months ago when my views where, to a very great extent, the same as yours?

Respectfully, I would posit that if your are not qualified to interpret studies, neither are you qualified to opine on which interpretations of those same studies are correct, and which are in error. Anyone who accepts as a truth that you are not qualified to interpret those studies must, as a mater of logic, also dismiss your views on which interpretations of those studies are worth accepting.

Once again, I am not telling you what to think, I am only empowering you to think, to think for yourself.

Just as Socrates is reported to have stated at his trail for impiety, “… the unexamined life is not worth living”, I would assert that the unexamined diet is not worth eating.

Keto for Life.

Warmest Regards,
Richard

(Lesley) #22

PURE study. Recruited 153.996 adults from 17 countries aged 35-70 years between 2003 and 2009. They are in the process of making their findings known this year to the medical world.

President of the World Heart Federation, Professor Salim Yusuf “Contrary to common belief the current recommendation to reduce saturated fat has no scientific basis.”

(Jacob Wagner) #23

I don’t have any authority here. But I am going to ask friend to friend that we discontinue this debate in this thread.

We are not here to judge either the credentials or conclusions of others.

The founders of this forum have said that it has two dogmas, “show me the science,” and, “do what works for you.”

Not everyone is in the same place about everything and if we really want to help eachother that has to be okay.

If you want to debate the value of saturated fats, I as humbly as I can request you start a thread to do that.

–Jacob

(Jack Brien) #24

There is quite a bit of evidence available on this forum, presented by people who are extremely well qualified to interpret the studies. Have a look at the podcasts, a recent one with Dr Malhotra, a UK cardiologist may be helpful, or previous to that there are discussions with Prof Noakes, Dr Nicolantonio (editor of the BMJ Open Heart) , and Dr Fettke, an Australian orthopaedic surgeon.
Hope that helps

(Jen ) #25

Hi Lucy,

If you aren’t here to learn this WOE, perhaps you should stop what is coming across as quite rude.

Everyone here respects others. @FatMan & @carl have reduced their diabetes, along with weight loss.

No one is “pushing an agenda”, “conspiracy theorists”, or anything in the like.

If Keto isn’t for you, perhaps you should see a nutritionist for your dietary needs. 100 grams of carbs per day is a lot; the whole point of Keto is to kick the sugar burning and burn fat off of your body, while feeling better.

I am not listing my credentials because in the forum we are just people instead of health care professionals, BUT I would never recommend poly’s to anyone in good conscience.

I eat whole food, good food, non-GMO, and it’s delicious.

Why are you so resistant to the help being offered? This is not an attack, just trying to figure out what your goals are and the like.

Best,
Jen

(Jen ) #26

@tnsg

As an American, I respect European studies more than American studies.

Why?

America is run by pharmaceutical companies. These companies fund most of the research in this country. Pharmaceutical companies WANT you to be sick… therefore raising prices on both OTC and prescription meds.

Totally aside, they also fund campaigns for politicians…

Something to chew on…

#27

Hi Lucy,

If you’re willing to read past the AHA headlines, I think that you’ll find that the science doesn’t support the saturated fat fears at all, and if you want to do some in-depth reading, you can start with Nina Teicholz’s excellent book The Big Fat Surprise. (Disclaimer - this might have already been mentioned! I haven’t read through all the posts). She traces the studies on which some of those AHA claims are based, and it’s fascinating and a wonderful read.

In any case, if you’re determined to avoid saturated fats, keto is doable, but I would avoid the highly processed seed and bean oils (canola and soybean in particular), and stick to fatty fish, olive oil, and avocado for your main fats.

#28

ooh boy… having now actually read the whole thread, I stand by my advice but now I see how we’re at 27 posts in a half a day.

Lucy, there’s a lot of interesting information out there, and you’ll have to learn to figure out which experts to trust and also how to sift through studies and use pretty basic common sense. The websites that you link to are the “We all know the earth is flat” version of nutritional science at this point. You don’t need to take our word for it, but I would recommend more skepticism and more reading than you’ve done to date if you want to make good decisions about your health.

Here’s a simple starting point from the common sense approach:

animal fats = part of human diet since the dawn of our species

canola and soybean oils recommended by the AHA = new, highly processed foods

(CharleyD) #29

If we trusted in the experts with our health, there wouldn’t be any of us here.
The ketogenic diet is pretty much the inversion of any authority’s guidelines except Sweden’s.
:rofl:

(VLC.MD) #30

Make sure you don’t eat salmon.
It is one third saturated fat.

image

Easy on the olive oil and soybean oil … 12-17% saturated fat.
image

Here is a thread about fats.

#31

I will accept that this post was done as a genuine question rather than to start a debate.

The diet you want is not sustainable. I know because I was on that diet for most of the last 7 years plus I exercised 4 days a week for 2 hours a day. What happened? I lost 60 lbs only to gain back 48 of those lbs. I would avoid all white flour, gluten, and try to eat mostly whole foods, fruits, vegetables and protein and while I did not limit my fat, I was not eating a tremendous amount. Caloriewise I was at about 1600 per day and when I went back and looked at the logs I had from that time I varied between 75g and 200g of carbs a day. What bothered me was not how painfully slow the weight loss was and that my blood sugar was not where I wanted but that I would use any excuse to cheat and then I would lose control. The fat as a satieting tool keeps me from cheating on keto, that is the main difference.

In the last 10 years I have tried not to use vegetable oils, keto or not, stay away. They are unstable. I only cook with avocado or olive or coconut oil and animal fats.

I was very worried about the fat but the more I read while on keto the less worried I became. Maybe I have drunk the koolaid but I am far more distrustful of western medicine now than I have ever been. One of the top endocinologists in the country is treating my good friend into an early grave due to diabetes, he tells her she can eat what she wants, just match her T2 insulin to her meal, she is already lost several body parts to diabetes. She will eventually lose her life, she has the best care money can buy or at least the most credentialled

I am appalled at how biased studies are. I really did believe that scientific studies represented scientific truth and had been arrived at honestly. I had no idea about the bias, some of it quite unintentional but still there. We were taught that doctors are the high priests of medicine, the only ones allowed to administer it or interpret it. Well they gave that away to the drug companies and now a few people who really care about their health are taking it back. I find it offensive when anyone tells me that I am not qualified to read or understand something. That is being intellectually lazy and I do not believe that