Happened to listen to this Podcast today and the speaker talked about Oxalate poisoning and that it goes beyond kidney stones. I realized I eat a ton of almond flour, not much spinach and way much peanut butter. Should we be worried?
Do you have any of those symptoms? A high carb diet has a lot of oxidised waste products to get rid of. Keto frees up a lot of that load so oxalates might be cleared easier (just a guess!)
If you were getting any of the listed symptoms I might be more worried.
I find that peanut butter gives me aches if I go over about a spoonful. I don’t have much flour at all.
For many years, since my 30s I have been very stiff when getting up from a seated position. This started after my first child who is in college was born and has never gone away. I am fine after walking 5 steps but the first few steps remind me of my mother who is in her late 70s. While I do not have hardly any aches and pains, this has never gone away.
My concern is that I really do eat a lot of almond flour and nuts in general since starting keto and I would hate to find out that it is a problem,
Plus since starting keto over a year ago I have had some weird symptoms. gout like symptoms, uti like symptoms and other strange things. They go away but some do not always stay away and there is no real reason for these to occur. I did not have them when eating moderate carb (rarely had almonds and limited my nuts then and certainly never ate almond flour). Since I do not eat that much fat (just do not like it) and have not changed my diet as much as some since I previously avoided or limited most grains anyway I have wondered what has caused this
As per her web page, in the comments under Fundamentals,
Finally, Calcium-Magnesium Citrate can bind ingested oxalates in your colon and (along with potassium citrate and lemon juice) help your kidneys eliminate those already in your body (in effect, improving your body’s ability to eliminate oxalate).citrate, they help remove it from your system.
Since most of us get this in our foods or through our supplements, I don’t think it is an issue.
I am not in the 10 cups of spinach a day gang either. So I doubt my one serving of almond flour I average a day in the form of a roll will cause an OD of oxalates. But if you are eating a lot of spinach or almond flour treats, you might cut back or supplement as per her suggestion.
I tend to eat almond flour in waves. Over the summer a 16 oz package of almond flour rotted and got all weebly because I did not make anything. Last week I made both cinnamon rolls and bread and have been eating them all week but I do eat peanut butter all the time as well as other nuts such as macadamia and pecans
Apparently spices such as turmeric, cinnamon, black pepper and cumin are high in this, I eat a ton
I don’t do peanuts I didn’t notice anything about the other nuts. But there is no way I am giving up macs and pecans nor my walnuts. I need the poly/monosats in those. Hopefully the supplementation will control any issues there.
I have to admit her site sounds like someone with an agenda, not sure I buy into all the bad stuff in plants any more than the meat is bad for you stuff out there. I do have genes/SNPs that make me a poor consumer of grains, so I just don’t eat any grains anymore and feel much better without them.
I have no idea if she has an agenda, I had never heard of her before or this. That is why I was curious if anyone knew anything. I am interested for two reasons, first kidney stones and gout run in my family but I never had a problem with either before last summer (still not sure I really had gout but there is this one area on my big toe) , second there are times when I do not feel as sharp as I would like and while I get the clarity when fasting, I do not have it at other times, if anything I am just as foggy as ever
I hate to play captain obvious, but if you think nuts are a problem why not experiment with that for a couple of weeks, switch them out for scratchings, jerky, bacon, cheese crips, kale chip, cream cheese etc and see how you feel. That’s what I’d do anyway.
Regarding the article, on trying to find sources to back up the article (but I didn’t try hard) the first three searched only found information that didn’t back up what she says.
First off, Kidney stones aren’t ‘made of oxalates’, there’s a few types, the most common are indeed calcium with oxalate. The exaggeration combined with withholding the rest of the info is a red flag to me.
Secondly, when you google for sources of oxalates nuts don’t actually make the list. I looked at a few sites and they generally agreed on what to avoid - salty snacks being one, and since you’re not keto (you don’t eat enough fat and a high quantity of nuts alone - they’re pretty carby in my book (6g in 2tbsp of PB) - plenty to keep you carb adapted), you won’t be flushing salt so you don’t need as much as a person on keto would.
Thank you for the information. I appreciate the research but did you see the part of the article you quoted that said meat can raise your risk of kidney stones? That has nothing to do with oxalates but is outdated conventional wisdom. As for salt, I do not know enough about the topic but like blood pressure, I am sure there is more to the story than blaming salt. As per the Salt Fix, most people do not get enough salt rather than too much.
Also, there is more to what she is saying than simply kidney stones, She views oxalates as a type of systemic poision. In the podcast she talks about how during one of the WWs people in the UK ate rhubarb leaves and died and it was attributed to oxalate poisioning.
This link has a downloadedable chart but if you notice it says in the recommendations
Avoid or limit oxalate-rich foods including spinach, rhubarb, beets, nuts, chocolate, wheat bran, sesame seeds
I don’t think you can say that without knowing me or my full diet. I have been on this path for 17months and have lost over 50 lbs. Keto is not about how much fat you eat, you can eat nothing and be in ketosis. Not everyone has the same carb tolerance either, some people need to be practically zero carb, others can eat 50 net carbs a day, depends on your insulin sensitivity and how active you are
It is not only nuts, it is many foods that some people on here will consume beyond almond and soy flour, such as cinnamon and turmeric and black pepper all of which according to Ms. Norton are high in oxalates, These are foods that we are encouraged to consume, especially cinnamon and turmeric for those with inflammatory conditions or diabetes. Part of the reason I posted, other than to find out if anyone knew anything about it was to encourage people to reseach since many of the foods she has concerns about are common keto foods which some of us eat in large quantities. I would hate to find out that I have been harming myself with almond flour and cinnamon. If there is nothing to it, great but if there is and cinnamon consumed with cream (calcium) is different than cinnamon consumed with tea, then I would like to know that
@Saphire its great you are doing this research. At the end of the day, what matters is how it affects you not so much what is in a book. The books are a map that may or may not take you to where you want to go.
Just to share my experiences… the almond butter (that i get from the health store - they grind plain almonds) is less reactive for me than peanut butter. A good experiment would be to switch out peanut butter and replace with almond butter. If symptoms get worse, almonds are bad. If symptoms get better then the peanuts are bad. One other thing i don’t eat is smoked almonds, which I find are very reactive. And remember that peanuts are not technically a nut - they are a legume and some people react to beans (legumes).
When I said I was on low carb, my doctor said to be careful of purines. I think that is in liver? Purines and uric acid is what is implicated in gout - maybe check into that as well re your diet? I had a bit of that toe pain, but it went away when I went from carbage to KETO.
Also another thing to try is coconut flour.
Dr Gundry has a lot to say about Lectins which are high in grains and leafy vegetables. You could check into that as a possibility as well.
One reference about Uric Acid, Purines and Gout: it says medication can be effective and that red meat is a culprit. I never reacted to red meat when on keto. In the end, you have to try things out.
Another thing to consider is drinking enough water.
I get joint trouble especially in my back from ingesting dairy. It could be you have some food intolerances, maybe nuts or peanuts. Also, some nuts, spinach, and some of the spices you mentioned are considered histamine foods. Maybe you have a histamine intolerance. Dr. Georgia Ede provides information about foods and how they affect us on her website diagnosisdiet.com. She also has two very informative articles about histamine intolerance.
I don’t believe red meat is the culprit in gout, any more than that it is the culprit in diabetes. Sugar and carbohydrate consumption correlate with gout which, along with dental cavities, is one of the early chronic diseases to show up in a population when it starts eating sugar and refined grains. (Diabetes and cardiovascular disease take longer to develop.) Gout was originally seen only in rich people, and the reason is that only they could afford sugar and refined flour in quantity. Once the price of refined sugar and white flour came down into the reach of regular people, gout made its way into the rest of the population.
Thanks Paul. That’s an example of what you read may not be true or may not apply to yourself because you’re not average. (In the general, not you directly, Paul.)
As I said in my post, when I went on keto (and I eat red meat daily) all the gout symptoms went away. But also did the ‘tennis elbow’, cellulitis, knee pain, hip pain, sleepiness, high blood sugar, headaches, anxiety, oh yeah and obesity.
Speak for yourself. I choose to believe that all of us here on these forums are above-average, thank you very much!
Studies generally focus on the average.
I want to be both … below average in weight and above average In countering the vicissitudes of non-ketogenesis. :halo:
You go, boy!
I think the amount of oxalate in the amount of black pepper I actually use is not something I would worry about if I had concern about oxalates.
Oxalate metabolism is more complicated than just “don’t ingest.” Elimination is one strategy. Working your system to allow your body to process them out (like getting adequate magnesium) would be another route.
Keto, Ginger Supplementation, and Special Farts: Lypolysis Carbon Dioxide?
While I do not think any of this is a problem for me, it might be something others have an issue with and were unaware of. I have a friend who recently had kidney stones and all sorts of complications. She had been on a low carb diet over the last year and developed the kidney stones while on assignment in a hot climate where she did not drink enough. This may help her as well as possibly some other people who at least should be aware this could be a possibility (assuming the person on the link is legit, I have no idea, she is making a living from this).
I was going to post the same link. I will sometimes put a teaspoon of cinnamon in my coffee, a few times a day, same with sprinkles of cocoa powder, thinking it did not matter. Sometimes I will add Turmeric to a recipe because it is the new spice darling and is according to conventional wisdom supposed to be good as an anti inflammatory. I figure my sad diet family could use more of that. I will now stop unless the recipe really calls for it. Personally I love cinnamon but will take it into consideration, do only a very light sprinkle. There are people on here who take a bunch of ginger capsules each day, maybe they want to add fresh ginger instead? Bottom line there are easy swaps that may potentially avoid a problem or this is BS and is not a problem for most people. I have no idea, simply making people aware it exists which I did not know about last week
Oxalate is a organic acid salt, meaning that it’s a mineral (most notably calcium) bound with oxalic acid. It occurs naturally in MANY plant foods.
There’s an erroneous myth that eating foods high in oxalates (or phytates) will deplete our bodies of important minerals, but this is simply not true. Proper mineral access (esp sodium, magnesium, and potassium) and then absorption of minerals is the key (meaning, healthy gut bacteria levels and enteric nervous system healing) - otherwise oxalates can interfere w/ absorption.
Some people (about one in 3 million) have genetic disorders that cause too much oxalate to be produced within the body, and other people have absorption disorders that cause too much oxalate to get absorbed from the gut (including Crohn’s disease, celiac disease, chronic pancreatitis, and side-effects from bariatric surgery).
I am not one of these ^ folks - and - anti-inflammatory spices like Ginger & Turmeric (they’re cousins) can heal a world of woes, along with the anti-inflammatory nourishment practices (LCHF/ketooooo!). I think it comes down to gut healing foundations really… For folks with excess gut fermentation issues, the work of microbiologist Norm Robillard PhD (author of Fast Tract Digestion, recommended by Dr. Michael Eades) and the work of pharmacologist Grace Liu PhD are awesome resources
I am female, six decades young. I have only just learned about oxalates in food. I have been carnivore 10 months.
I have a swollen, shedding, burning tongue which has been an issue for 5 years now. Two doctors and two dentists could not treat it or tell me how to resolve it. It was the reason I went Carnivore, and it is slowly getting better, but certainly not 100%.
I also have joint aches and pains which seem to stop when I come off coffee.
Other issues are cystitis type symptoms with cloudy urine. I do have runs of clear urine but some days it is shocking.
My left shoulder used to give me pain every so often.
My bowels are hopefully starting to normalise. I had been reliant on herbs to move them every now and then, but realised that I was not constipated, it was just no waste there.
My teeth are very bad for tartar. I have to go regularly and get them scraped. Chunks of tartar sometimes break off if I worry it with my fingernail.
I am dizzy, and lack balance. This does not seem to be improving on the Carnivore diet.
Oxalate dumping does explain most/all of the above. I am seeing improvements over time. Dumping can take years.
I have eaten loads of junk food, vegetarian, processed food, almond flour, LSA, spinach galore, etc so I WAS eating high oxalate foods for nearly sixty years. No doubt there is a build up.
I am considering supplementing to help with oxalate dumping, but time will tell.
For me, the most obvious sign is cloudy urine every now and then.