Hi Everyone!
I just returned from 6 days in Vegas for Keto Academy. It was an unbelievable experience where the leading inovators, top researchers and doctors talked about ketones and what they do to our body. It was 10 hour days and I didn’t want to leave my seat for fear I would miss something. My journey to a Ketogenic diet was because I was having health issues and scared. I saw a post on one of my friends FB page on the benefits that pure therapitic exogenous ketones were having on him. More mental clarity, more energy, better sleep, fat loss - the list went on and on. I was desperate so I bought myself the product and was shocked at the results. My Main issue that I had was mental clarity. I truly thought that I had early onset of Alzheimer’s. Within 5 days of taking the product I was on fire! I couldn’t believe how much I was back to normal. By the end of the month the inflammation in my knees (they looked like oranges) was completely gone. I knew I was in to something and that’s when I changed my diet to Ketogenic. I continue to do both the exogenous ketones and the diet as it increases my health and vitality. It has been a game changer. I also found this forum that introduced me to fasting. I think all combined together gives you the best you - and who doesn’t want that!
When I was in Vegas, I made it my mission to meet as many people as I could (which being an introverted extrovert was WAY outside my comfort zone). I wanted to hear their stories and what brought them there. I have never shed so many tears or been more inspired by their stories. I met a lot of doctors, Naturopaths, therapists and nurses that also use the product to help their patients. Keto can be hard for some to do and this gives everyone the benefit of being in ketosis without the diet. It’s diet independent, meaning anyone can use it.
One of the highlights for me at the conference was hearing Dr Mary Newport talk about her husband and his battle with Alzheimer’s. She had been working on a product to get to market for 9 years and now has something that we can give patients that have Alzheimer’s and dementia. I had been following her for a year because I was so interested in her work and I was so excited for her to now be able to help others.
I love this community because it’s all about helping people be their better selves.
Have a fantastic day everyone and keep supporting each other with love, tips and tricks.
Keto Academy and Exogenous Ketones
Thoughts on exogenous ketones
Hi, Shelley: did the folks in Vegas give any scientific backup for this claim? If so, can you share it? I’d love to see it as this is a pretty bold statement on exogenous ketones and not one I’ve heard anyone say before, even those who are sales affiliates or marketers of exogenous ketones. Or, perhaps, it might be too early to have science on this? I find the whole exogenous ketone thing intriguing, but the marketing claims I’ve seen for some products are very strong.
Hi there. One scientist that has pioneered the way is Dr Dominic D’Agistino who unfortunately was not at this particular event but has been a speaker about his research in the past. Here is a TED talk he did a while ago.
There is also the Ketogenic Bible by Jacob Wilson and Ryan Lowery, both who spoke at the event about research they have been doing.
Dr Mary Newport has been doing research as well because of her husbands Alzheimer’s condition was there and just launched a supplement for brain support.
Thanks. I am quite familiar with Dom D’Agostino’s work, which is sort of what prompted my question. His appearances on Joe Rogan’s podcast, for example, are required listening for anyone into this stuff. He’s excellent and really smart.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard him say that taking exo ketones gives “everyone the benefit of being in ketosis without the diet.” That’s just not a claim I’ve heard before. And, your reference to Mary Newport is a good one, too, as what she’s doing is very interesting. But, it doesn’t really relate to the claim that if you take exo ketones you get the benefit of ketosis regardless of diet.
I’ve also read the Ketogenic Bible and it did a nice job of teeing up the issue and shining a positive light on the emerging research, notwithstanding the plugs for Pruvit.
Dr Dom has said that he has been exploiting the benefits of exogenous ketones performance advancement, physical performance and cognitive development.
Perhaps it would be better said that they can elevate ketones in your body while being diet independent. So you can benefit from increased energy, focus, assists in fat loss, strength gain, better mood etc that you get while on a Ketogenic diet.
I’m enjoying this discussion btw as I think there are more and more ways that we can better our bodies and be better.
Ah, yes, that seems to be a better way of saying it. I think the jury is still out as to the efficacy (and long term safety) of exogenous ketone use, and whether it’s a powerful tool or like, as someone I respect said, “like dumping sweat all over yourself” and thinking you won the marathon. But, it’s still a very interesting time of research and innovation we live in.
I have had a few friends try to sell me exo ketones in the last couple weeks. They will be the next big thing in direct marketing.
There are two things that I will consider, though. Firstly, they be beneficial to persons who simply will not go keto, e.g. a stubborn 90-year old, but could benefit from ketones. Secondly, I’m curious to see how studies unfold addressing the potential benefits of exo ketones for even those of us who are fat adapted and may not be producing a lot of ketones.
Well I have to say that from my experience there and meeting all the people who have had such incredible results in their personal lives was all the scientific research I needed. Many people used it as a starting block to go into Ketogenic diet and others used it only with their own diet and others use it as a combo. Some did it for entirely different reasons then diet - it helped their mental state and mood. One therapist I met used it with her patients who were on the autism spectrum and was having great results with it. There were well over 2000 people there that had a story. But this was my experience and it started my journey and I am forever grateful for it. I love this community that also helps me. The power of people building each other up and really knowing that we have been fed a fat lie in terms of our diet can not be denied. There are nay Sayers about being on a Ketogenic diet and the verdict is still out, but as many of you can attest, this way of life has changed you for the better. I believe in doing all you can in bettering your own life.
It’s already started. All of the MLM Pruvit and other schemes are in full force. It seems that no matter where you turn, someone or their sister is a Pruvit or similar affiliate. More power to them as long as they don’t overstate the product or over promise its benefits. Shortcuts to anything - including ketosis and the benefits of a ketogenic diet - make me skeptical. There is no research that I’m aware of supporting any claim for exogenous ketones for weight loss (which is why many of us are here). Zero. And the legitimate backers, like D’Agostino, are honest about it. The MLM sales force? We shall see, I suppose.
And in case D’Agostino’s point wasn’t clear above, he’s saying exogenous ketones may actually hinder fat loss if too much is taken. Again, he’s the real deal and I love his science and approach. It’s the carnival barker aspect of the sales approach by others that makes me worry about the negative perception/effect it will have on the ketogenic diet and lifestyle as a whole. I hope the research continues and keeps moving in the right direction. But the hype should keep pace with the proven results.
While I agree that human testing is in its infancy stage so they say with the ketogentic lifestyle in general. The long term effects are all unknown but yet there are people who talk about their stories and how it’s changed their lives. Did you know that it takes 17 years of research to get to clinical studies? That was a quote from Dr David Diamond who attended and spoke at the event. But the Ketogenic community and those that take exogenous ketones are out there telling their stories. Now they may not be able to make medical claims, but they know what happens to their bodies and it’s sure a hell of a lot better than the doc telling them take a handful of pills. My doc told me to take ALEVE twice in the morning and evening for a week to get rid of my arthritic pain and inflammation. Imagine what that would do the rest of body if I took that advice long term? I didn’t need to. I found a better way. So we can go through research upnthe ying yang and although I think it helps to validate everything we do, it still is the human experience of what happens to them. My body and my experience can not be denied, nor the stories that I witnessed. Just as your doc may say their isn’t enough research on the keto diet to go either way (which my doc said) but how many of you would argue different?
I like my exogenous ketones too. I take them when I’m tired and immediately feel better. I don’t use them that often but I feel they have their place in my lifestyle. They are definitely not for people chasing ketones. I don’t have to test mine to know if they are lower than 2, which is where I feel my best level of energy. I could just use MCT but it upsets my stomach because I don’t use it everyday so I opt for my more expensive ketones.
Thanks for your feedback Lisa. I didn’t know what ketones or ketosis was until I heard about Pruvit. That’s what started my journey and I’m forever grateful for it. It changed my life and how I eat. I thought that I could live a full Ketogenic lifestyle without ketones but I felt so restricted and honeslty, I wanted to eat a bit of cake at a birthday party or drink a beer with some friends. I just find I have more flexibility on it and I find that when I do both, I feel like I’m on fire. I have gotten so passionate about it because I have witnessed the changes in so many people. Exogenous ketones help people who can’t or won’t do a Ketogenic diet either with dietary restrictions or they just don’t want to do it. Also it’s hard with children. Children will gain the benefits of exogenous ketones and not have to worry so much about the diet. I have had mothers who have told me that they knew a ketogentic diet was best for their children who had ADD/ADHD or were on the autism spectrum but it was difficult to keep them on it. This way they could get their kids to drink them.
I know there are people who are die hard all in keto people and I think it’s amazing, but for me and and so many people I know, it works. I love it, I promote it and I just want to help as many people as I can become better. That’s the thing too is that sometimes just being initiated into a product that helps your body feel better, you start making better choices and you eat better.
Have to say that, absent some studies backing this, I’m not convinced.
There is some evidence I’ve seen that exogenous ketones may be beneficial for some brain disorders, but for the rest of us, ketones are a byproduct of eating keto, not necessarily a cause of the health benefits of eating keto. If you take exo ketones and still eat carbs, you are doing exactly nothing to help with insulin, which drives a great deal of the downsides attending the standard American diet.
And as @richard likes to point out, taking exogenous ketones when you’re supplying your body glucose is just making really expensive pee. If you have sufficient body fat, you can make more ketones than your body can use.
Everyone is free, of course, to use and eat what works for them. I have seen no scientific literature to suggest that exogenous ketones are beneficial to the general public, particularly in the context of carb consumption, and it seems that most people who recommend them have a commercial interest in selling them. Nothing wrong with recommending something you sell, but it shouldn’t be surprising that a self-interested recommendation receives some skepticism.
This is a very strong and troubling statement to me. We should be teaching our kids to “worry” about their diets by encouraging them to eat real food, not drink lab-made supplements whose long term effects on rapidly developing bodies is, at best, unknown. I’m sorry if this seems harsh, but at some point product pushing needs to be met with, well, some pushback. Especially for unverified and potentially dangerous claims regarding children and supplements.
One of the problems I have with exogenous ketones is that eating them is a different context than making them.
When we make them it’s because we are eating a high fat diet, and burning body fat for energy. The context is that we need to have ketones in our blood because glucose is low and insulin is low and that is the only context in which we make them.
We make 2 kinds of ketones, AcAc (acetoacetate) and BOHB (betahydroxybutyrate) and the ratio in which we make these is determined by the ratio of NAD+ to NADH in our cells. These are critical control levers for our metabolism called our redox state that affect systems throughout the body.
Finally there are actually 2 kinds of BOHB, it is what we call a chiral molecule, which just means it comes in multiple shapes - called stereo isomers. A left handed one (L-BOHB) and a right handed one (D-BOHB) each one a mirror image of the other.
We have only ever made D-BOHB and making and using that is a process that our ancestors have done for roughly 3 billion years … so we are good at doing that. You can think of it like the L-Tetris block we make the right kind to fit into the right hole. Same pattern, but mirror images.
Contrast all that to what happens when we EAT ketones
They are now present in our circulation WITH glucose and insulin, which is not a context our body has evolved to deal with. Dr Benjamin Bikeman gave a good talk about this at Brekenridge.
The TLDR version is there are a LOT of systems that can go slowly haywire over decades when the body experiences that kind of mixed message, not least of which is making both obesity and diabetes worse.
Secondly when we make BOHB we are making it out of AcAc and we are converting that in the ratio determined by our NAD+/NADH ratio.
D-BOHB + NAD+ ⇋ AcAc + NADH + H+
When we eat BOHB (which is what most exogenous ketones are) then we are putting our thumbs on the scale of our NAD+/NADH state. In essence we are removing some NAD+ to a sensitive ratio that controls reduction/oxidation processes throughout the entire body. You might think that scientists like DOm D’agostino and Jake Wilson have looked into what that means … but if they have they have yet to publish a paper on the topic.
Finally when we make BOHB in the lab, we make equal amounts of the D-BOHB that we have 3 billion years experience in using … and equal amounts of the L-BOHB that we have less than a decades experience in using.
It’s the other kind of L-Tetris shape
We don’t even know precisely what happens to L-BOHB as the enzyme that converts D-BOHB into AcAc so we can use it ONLY works with the D- form. Does the L-BOHB just hang around gumming up the works, or does it use some as yet unknown pathway that puts pressure on a different part of our metabolism, or does it compete for transport with critical metabolytes.
No-one knows.
Given we have less than a decade of data - what happens to young fit people who take a caloric amount of this stuff for a considerable fraction of their lives?
You might think that … well it’s the same chemical, just a mirror image version. What’s the harm?
There was once a chemical that was found to be especially effective in reducing nausea especially morning sickness during pregnancy. It was a chiral molecule too, one that has a mirror image. The one that caused the intended effect was the right handed (R-) form, the other left handed (S-) form was not as well researched.
Well it turned out that when this molecule was eventually manufactured in an industrial process they naturally made both molecules. It turns out that S-Thalidomide is teterogenic and caused 10,000 children to be born with limb deformities.
As podcasters Carl and I have been offered complimentary exogenous ketones from multiple suppliers, offered a lot of money to let them advertise on our show or have a booth at ketofest, put sponsored posts about exogenous ketones in our forum.
Personally I think we need to know the answers to THESE questions before we put our health at risk.
- Is there any benefit to type 2 diabetics and the obese of exogenous ketones
- What is the effect of Glucose, Insulin and BOHB coexisting in concentration in circulation
- What are the acute and chronic effects of wrenching the Re/Dox state
- How is L-BOHB metabolized
- Is a caloric amount safe
- Is a caloric amount over a significant fraction of a human life span safe
I can make ketones any time I need to by just not eating carbs … or if I really want to make ketones in bulk by eating medium chained triglycerides. The right kind of ketone, in the right context. That’s good enough for me.
What's the benefits of drinking ketones
Bhb Salts..any suggestions on brand that really works
Studies using ketone salts and esters
Ketone supplements?
Hi Andrew. Thank you for your input. I really appreciate it as I think open dialogue is a great way to sharing information.
It has been my experience that those who take exogenous ketones, usually are introduced to them before they have ever heard of a Ketogenic diet - that was certainly the case for me. However, once people begins to feel better and look better they start to do better. They start to make better food choices, they begin to move more they become more active. You are right that to keep a high carb diet and drink ketones would be pretty silly.
As for research - did you know hat it can take up to 17 years of research before it goes to clinical trials? However keto community is pushing things forward at a rapid pace. Because people are giving feedback to the changes that are happening, more independent research is now being done. I have also heard antidotal testimonies from people about how this has changed their lives. There are doctors and medical professionals that are using it and giving it to their patients. This has been my experience and I think there are many ways to be at your best and sometimes it takes some tweaking and finding what works best for each individual.
I work for a non profit and have done my entire adult life. I work with premed students and you bet I tell them about a ketogentic diet before they get to med school!!!