Karim's Extended Fast Tracker - come along for the ride

[RightNOW]

Teens through about age 30.

[Karim_Wassef]

Ok. Starting a new extended fast tomorrow 2/24/20 (day 1). Not sure how long I can make it but I thought I’d share it here and see if I can beat last year’s record of 19 consecutive days.

I plan to take some photos, track weight, fat weight and non-fat weight as well as glucose and ketones.

I had a chicken thigh, some thin crust pizza and leg of lamb today… the pizza is a major aberration for me (and I have a headache already)…

I plan to only drink coffee, tea and water with salts, ACV and stevia + my usual vitamin and mineral supplements (zero calorie except for the fat soluble vitamins).

Wish me luck and help me break through my 19 day record

[Karim_Wassef]

and I’ll be focused on daily (as much as I can) UV (sun or bed)… vitamin D is a big deal to me

[Ilana_Rose]

Ooh, good luck @Karim_Wassef! It’s nice to have you back with us. Let us know where you’re starting from!

[Karim_Wassef]

Day 1 -

Pretty embarrassing but it’s been a long day and I didn’t get sun or lifting. I also see the direct effects of water retention driven by indulging in carbs yesterday…

To put it in context, I was 196 the day before so that’s 5lbs of weight gain in 24 hrs… clearly meaningless but interesting to note.

I think my lowest weight was 163 last year and I ended my 19 day fast last time at 167 losing 23lbs in the process.

m = muscle mass
o = other mass
f = fat mass
W = weight
G = Glucose
K = Ketones
GKI = G / K / 18

[Ilana_Rose]

I’ve been getting amazing GKI’s completely unfasted on high fat carnivore. Yesterday it was 0.9 and today 1.1 just as examples. Today I’d eaten twice already and had two big cups of creamed coffee by the time I’d tested.

[Karim_Wassef]

It depends on where you are in your endogenous vs. exogenous fat consumption. I’ve managed to fatten myself up (keto style = low oxidation) so I still have a way to go

[Karim_Wassef]

mostly water purging today and almost no movement on ketones. I think it’s interesting that after 48hrs (last food was Sunday 6pm) fasted, my ketones are still only at 0.3 but they were at 0.2 after pizza…

I think there’s still fiber fermentation in progress (I had salted seaweed sheets) so there are still many sources of energy for days before my body resorts to its own stores.

It’s very adapted and efficient! That SOB!

[Ilana_Rose]

It depends on where you are in your endogenous vs. exogenous fat consumption.

Can you explain this? My fat consumption will be virtually entirely exogenous. I’m completely weight stable and at maintenance.

[Karim_Wassef]

When I am eating high fat keto (<10g carb), I can have high ketones or low ketones…

It depends on whether the combination of protein and fat I’m consuming exceeds my energy and rebuilding needs. If they do, then my ketones stay depressed (0.2 - 0.4) and my GKI is high… and I can gain weight. Here the intake is enough to keep me out of effective ketosis and most of the energy from exogenous fat is stored.

It took me many months (actually almost a year) but I managed to go from 163 to 201 this way. This isn’t the same as weight gain due to carbs though, it’s not oxidating and doesn’t increase insulin significantly. It’s a slow crawl of fat building. My glucose stayed under 100 but my ketones rarely got over 0.5 while eating OMAD keto… but the portions mattered.

This isn’t keto for weight loss. It was keto for longevity. I knew I was gaining weight and it was intentional since I was also bulking and lifting.

If I lower my intake close to or below my energy needs, then my ketones start to rise and my GKI drops… this is where I’m using the exogenous fat directly for energy because it’s not in surplus.

If I continue to reduce it, then I start using endogenous fat… both yield higher ketones and lower GKI.

[Karim_Wassef]

6 plates on each side = 540lbs. Much better than a few months ago.

[cervyn]

fiber fermentation in progress (I had salted seaweed sheets)

please tell me more!

(and welcome back, i hope life and job and family are all going well)

[Ilana_Rose]

When I am eating high fat keto (<10g carb), I can have high ketones or low ketones…

Have you ever had low ketones when you were doing both no carb and low protein? I’m very curious if this is possible even at excess calories.

My glucose stayed under 100 but my ketones rarely got over 0.5 while eating OMAD keto… but the portions mattered.

Is that fasting glucose?

I read something interesting from Fung. He said insulin resistance could increase on any macro combination if the food consumption was high enough. Even pure fat assuming it was possible to eat too much pure fat.

Thanks for your response. It aligns with my own thinking that ketones and glucose are impacted by total food intake and not just macronutrient composition.

[Karim_Wassef]

I’m fasting so I won’t get too deep into food but here’s my favorite

Kirkland Signature Organic Roasted Seaweed Snack Pack of 10 (0.6 Ounces each)

I don’t snack on OMAD so I intentionally make sure to enjoy it during my 2hrs of eating 6-8pm. I sometimes make a savory dip (that only I can enjoy) with tahini, sauerkraut and pickled ginger. If I want to turn it into a meal, I add tuna, anchovies and cod liver into the mix. Then I roll half spoonfuls into the seaweed sheets and roll them into tiny finger rolls.

Darn it … now I’m talking about food while fasting.

and thank you for your well wishes.

Life is settling down a bit (as much as it can) but it’s still time consuming with lots of travel.

[Karim_Wassef]

Have you ever had low ketones when you were doing both no carb and low protein? I’m very curious if this is possible even at excess calories.

I’m assuming you mean high fat (excess over need), low everything else - would ketones still be depressed? I have never tried that. Fat can still drive some insulin but it’s weak. My suspicion would be that it would be a condition with high ketones + very high thermogenic + fat waste + fat storage.

High ketones because that’s the only fuel source
Highly thermogenic because low insulin + high energy sources should drive greater usage
Fat waste because eventually the body will run out of the ability to consume and have to excrete. I don’t know how our digestive system would function with only high fat…
Finally, when all else is addressed, it would store (Fat store).

That’s an interesting experiment … I may have to do that at some point or research the literature.

Is that fasting glucose?

Fasting glucose ranged from 60 to 80. Unfasted was always under 100 also (80 - 100).

He said insulin resistance could increase on any macro combination if the food consumption was high enough. Even pure fat assuming it was possible to eat too much pure fat.

hmmm… are you sure it was insulin resistance would increase or it is insulin would increase?
My recollection is that there’s two kinds of “insulin resistance”.

The first is chronic and is caused by continuously high levels of insulin caused by high carbs and the inability of fat cells to absorb any more fat pushing them to reject the effect of insulin.

The second is transient and caused by very low glucose levels preceding the spike where the body will reject insulin to make sure sufficient levels of glucose are available to the brain and blood cells first before allowing the rest of the organs and tissue to start storing or absorbing.

In the case of moderate protein intake while on keto and with low glucose, the body releases glucagon at a higher rate than insulin to bypass this effect completely. This preserves the glucose in the blood for the brain and blood cells while releasing fat for energy and allowing the protein to be used more effectively.

The first is what you have with the SAD diet. The second/third is what you have with Keto/fasting immediately after eating.

[Karim_Wassef]

ok someone has to comment on my 540lb press on my second day of fasting…

[Ilana_Rose]

hmmm… are you sure it was insulin resistance would increase or it is insulin would increase?

Yes. Here is the blog entry where he explains the mechanism.

The Biochemistry of Insulin Resistance — Diet Doctor

From the final paragraph:

“You’ll also note that ‘insulin resistance’ while carbohydrate dominated, can also be activated through, for example, too much fat (triglycerides). Any macronutrient may produce ATP, which will overload the system and cause glucose to back up.”

[Karim_Wassef]

I think it depends on the underlying state. I don’t expect it to be the same for overweight vs underweight or fasting vs. SAD.

So in a SAD state, all excess energy sources would contribute to IR. But starting from a fasted state, I would expect excess macros to trigger a transient IR but not be chronic. I would expect high insulin sensitivity and rapid weight gain post-fast… aka normal recovery.

[Don_Q]

ok someone has to comment on my 540lb press on my second day of fasting…

I think that’s pretty damn badass. How many reps/sets are you doing? Is that going to 90 degree bend, or is that 540lbs “ass to grass”? If the former, it’s pretty damn impressive. If the latter, it’s a staggering amount of weight!

[Karim_Wassef]

I do 10 reps to 90 degree, then 8 reps, then 6 reps
then I drop the weight to 10 plates = 450lbs and I do 8 reps, then 6 reps
then I drop the weight again to 8 plates = 360lbs and I do 8 reps ass-to-grass (as you put it), then 6 reps
then I drop the weight to 4 plates and go until I’m in tears and I feel like my chest is going to burst through my chest… between 15 and 20…

At the end of each set, I stretch and do a suspended leg raise with glutes tightened to reinforce the mind-muscle there.

Today, I can barely walk and tomorrow will be worse…