Karim's Extended Fast Tracker - come along for the ride

Karim_Wassef · 2019-02-24 13:44:30 UTC

Ok. My big fast starts March 4th (March 3rd midnight) ending April 28th at 8pm and I’m starting my prep. I’m hoping to get to 26 days (4 weeks - 2 days), and refeed vegan for two days and then go again. Longest has been 12 days (2 weeks - 2 days) so I expect to need a little encouragement around the 11th day … it will go a long way

I don’t really have much family support (wife thinks I’m nuts).

I’m going for Dexa on the 1st (next Friday) 3:30pm… I expect I’ll be at 185lbs and 19% BF but I have little faith in my “smart scale” so who knows. I’m 180 today.

To prepare, I’m trying to beef up a bit - still keto and OMAD but pushing to 4000 calories and skipping my usual 3 days per week fast (Wed-Thurs-Fri). I’m 180lb today so I’d like to see a 5lb buffer built up over this week.

The purpose for this fast is three-fold:

Increase mental clarity and focus
Reduce loose skin through autophagy
Increase muscle and muscle % by boosting growth hormone and testosterone

I plan to:

Weightlift 5 days a week
Sauna 5 days a week
Tan (UVA) 3 days a week
Cold bath 1 day a week
Sleep 8 hours every day

This is my beast to conquer. Last year was miserable so I’m glad I found this forum for support and help.

Today - Sat Feb 23rd
3 pork tenderloin + 5 eggs + 4 bacon strips + 1 large ribeye + heavy cream + 2 spoons chicken liverwurst + 2 avocados w/EVOO + 1/2 cup macadamia
Cold Bath = yes
Lifting = no
Sauna = no
UV = no
Morning Glucose and Ketones (G, K) = 74, 1.5

Moumay_Moumay · 2019-02-23 19:47:41 UTC

Good luck! I hope you will succed! I would love to do a long fast but I will keep doing my IF untill I feel ready. I will be following your journey!!!

OldDoug · 2019-02-23 20:30:18 UTC

Good luck, Karim - it will be very interesting to see how things go for you.

Mel_Simpson · 2019-02-23 20:39:38 UTC

Cant wait to here how you are doing with it and and the results.
I’m going to do a fat fast starting tomorrow night. I already beefed up while I was on vacation. Will see just how beefy tomorrow night!!!

ctviggen · 2019-02-23 21:33:59 UTC

You’re going to do all of that while fasting for 2 months? Or is this before fasting?

Karim_Wassef · 2019-02-23 22:14:07 UTC

During… its all part of the same goal

ODE · 2019-02-23 22:30:46 UTC

Interesting as always, defo tracking this thread.

Don_Q · 2019-02-23 22:35:58 UTC

I’ll be fascinated to see where your RMR test lands if you’re pushing 4000kcal per day for > 1 week before starting. It’s entirely possible that it’ll up as high as 2500kcal. Ordinarily, the Mifflin St Jeor would have your RMR at around 1700 assuming you’re 180lbs, 45 years old, 70 inches.

If you enter into an extended fast with your RMR running that high, it might be tricky. @richard did some work a few years ago on the max fat mobilization you can achieve as a function of your available fat mass. I took a stab at the online calculator he made and you would be in a very substantial metabolic deficit relative to the max number of calories you can deduct from your existing fat stores. Might be a study worth checking out. I didn’t totally understand it to be honest.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A limit on the energy transfer rate from the human fat store in hypophagia.

SS Alpert, Journal of theoretical biology, Mar 2005 07

A limit on the maximum energy transfer rate from the human fat store in hypophagia is deduced from experimental data of underfed subjects maintaining moderate activity levels and is found to have a value of (290+/-25) kJ/kgd. A dietary restriction which exceeds the limited capability of the fat store to compensate for the energy deficiency results in an immediate decrease in the fat free mass (FFM). In cases of a less severe dietary deficiency, the FFM will not be depleted. The transition between these two dietary regions is developed and a criterion to distinguish the regions is defined. An exact mathematical solution for the decrease of the FFM is derived for the case where the fat mass (FM) is in its limited energy transfer mode. The solution shows a steady-state term which is in agreement with conventional ideas, a term indicating a slow decrease of much of the FFM moderated by the limited energy transferred from the fat store, and a final term showing an unprotected rapid decrease of the remaining part of the FFM. The average resting metabolic rate of subjects undergoing hypophagia is shown to decrease linearly as a function of the FFM with a slope of (249+/-25) kJ/kgd. This value disagrees with the results of other observers who have measured metabolic rates of diverse groups. The disagreement is explained in terms of individual metabolic properties as opposed to those of the larger population.

Mel_Simpson · 2019-02-23 22:46:02 UTC

Why are you going to tan

Karim_Wassef · 2019-02-23 22:54:59 UTC

UV = Nitric oxide & Vitamin D

Karim_Wassef · 2019-02-23 22:57:37 UTC

Thanks… good input. I tend to create aggressive challenges to overcome. Starting a fast with a high metabolism just means I can get into deep ketosis & autophagy faster.

I’ll dig into the links

Madeleine · 2019-02-23 23:19:49 UTC

That study is based on calorie-restricted sugar burners so I wouldn’t take it too much to heart. But 26 straight days at your size does seem like a lot! Wouldn’t you get the same autophagy benefits from several 5-7 day fasts?
In any case, good luck to you! I know you’ve done your research and planning.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-02-23 23:26:46 UTC

I’ll recalibrate based on the DEXA and RMR. The idea is to calculate the available fat based on my starting fat and an acceptable “final” fat % of 10%. Then assuming my current metabolic rate will not change much… that will give me the number of days I can go before refeeding.

The challenge will be eating enough in the two refeed days to go for another 20+ days. I may do a mid-fast retest to recalibrate.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-02-24 13:46:27 UTC

I ended up eating more than I thought and didn’t get to lift… Saturdays are family time, so not as structured -

Sat Feb 23rd
Meal = 3 pork tenderloin + 5 eggs + 4 bacon strips + 1 large ribeye + heavy cream + 2 spoons chicken liverwurst + 2 avocados w/EVOO + 1/2 cup macadamia
Glucose and Ketones (G, K):
74, 1.5 (morning)
59, 2.4 (noon, fasted)
52, 2.0 (after cold bath, fasted)
48, 1.6 (mid-meal)
71, 1.2 (night)

Interesting observation - mid-meal glucose is a little low but I had no symptoms of hypoglycemia.

Plan for today:
Sun Feb 24th
Meal = 5 eggs + 2 large ribeyes + 2 spoons chicken liverwurst + heavy cream + 1 avocado w/EVOO + 1/2 cup macadamia
Glucose and Ketones (G, K):
82, 1.3 (morning)

Karim_Wassef · 2019-03-01 22:47:33 UTC

Ok. I’ve been eating 6000cal per day for a week and have actually managed to get from 175 to 195 in 8 days! I was lifting every other day (busy week).

Dexa result:
194.4lb total
48.4lb fat
140.3lb lean
24.9% bf

Yikes!!

Talk about being an endomorph…

Fine- I’m just getting started

Predicted RMR = 1730
Measured RMR = 2360

Low activity expected RMR = 2600
Active expected RMR = 3190

Going to run some math…

Karim_Wassef · 2019-03-02 01:12:59 UTC

ok… target 12% bodyfat at 140.3lb lean ~ 157lb so…

That’s 37lb of fat (194-157) that I can burn for energy while fasting.
That’s 37lb x 453.6g/lb ~ 16,900g
That’s 16,900g x 9cal/g ~ 152,000 cal
If I’m active burning 3190 cal/day, then I have a reserve of 152,000 cal / 3190 cal/day ~ 48 days

Wow - ok…

So the fast starts on Monday 3/4 but I’m going to take a starter fast of 3 days - Mon 3/4, Tue 3/5, Wed 3/6 and eat a vegan meal once on 3/6. This is just to prime myself.

Then Thursday 3/7 to Friday 3/22, I will fast and have another Dexa Scan to see if the results line up with my math. That’s 15 days. If the results align, then I’ll continue for another 14 days until Friday April 12th when I plan another scan and decide if I’ll eat or continue on. The next Milestone is Sunday April 28th when I plan to break the fast for this year.

TroyO · 2019-03-02 01:52:25 UTC

I wish you nothing but the best luck with your fast. I’m a little confused about your numbers.

I ran your numbers through the calculations using the the limit on the maximum energy transfer rate from the human fat store in hypophagia spreadsheet. Starting day one you will be limited to around 1,519.80 cal/day energy from 48 lbs of fat, losing capacity daily to around 728.36 cal/day (23 lbs fat) by the 48th day. It will be interesting to see how your numbers actually look throughout this fast and where they finally end up at Best of luck, I’m rooting for you and will be following.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-03-02 03:15:07 UTC

thank you.

I don’t expect the hypophagia study to apply to keto adapted fasting. The data will show it one way or the other.

Also - I gained 30lbs from my lowest weight of 165 while remaining in ketosis every day. This was actually quite difficult. I’ll track weight and bf% as well and multiple ketone and glucose measures per day.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-03-05 06:38:33 UTC

ok.

Day 1
25% (bf%)
193.2 lb (total)
144.9 lb (lean)
0.4 (morning ketones) -> 1.8 (night ketones)
82 (morning glucose) -> 73 (night glucose)

I’m going to wait a couple of days and update my GKI index. Here’s a quick view of the last time I updated it:

This will show up as the LENT fast (40)

after day 1… a GKI drop from 11.4 to 2.3 in 16 hours… woohoo!

Don_Q · 2019-03-06 00:00:49 UTC

You posted this over on another thread, but I didn’t want to thread-jack over there particularly since the OP seemed so distressed about her post-adf satiety signals. This seemed like a more appropriate place to discuss feasting/fasting/RMR.

Suffice to say you’re results RMR test result is pretty stunning. The only other person I’ve seen with an RMR that high was over at the IDF forum, and he’d been doing 2feast:5fast for 5 months with big refeeds. We were trying to figure out how many standard deviations above the mean he was. The best study I could find of people his approximate weight/height with RMR’s that high was this one on the Australian National Rowing Team. They had a mean of 2200 kcal/day. You’ve got an Olympic level RMR my friend.

What was the feasting schedule like leading up to the test? 6000kcal/day is some pretty serious feasting indeed. I’ve yet to crack 5500kcal, and it’s not for lack of trying.

P.S., that’s an awesome chart. Is that a custom one you’ve made or is that prebuilt by the KetoTester? Either way it makes me tempted to buy a Keto tester and log some data during my own fasting.