Karim's Extended Fast Tracker - come along for the ride

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-07 20:19:00 UTC

I really don’t think so. I was in for an hour and they took their time setting up and there was no one after or even before me… The device had it’s own timer.

But I’ll check it out and see if they’ll let me take a picture.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-07 21:55:31 UTC

Leucine while or after fasting:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Leucine metabolism during fasting and exercise.

J Knapik, C Meredith, B Jones, R Fielding, V Young and W Evans, Journal of applied physiology (Bethesda, Md. : 1985), Jan 1991

Whole body leucine kinetics were examined in seven healthy young men while in a 14-h postabsorptive state (PAS) and after a 3.5-day fast (FS). Subjects received a primed constant intravenous infusion of L-[1-13C]leucine while resting for 3 h and then while exercising on a cycle ergometer at 45% maximal O2 uptake to exhaustion. Blood samples drawn during isotopic steady state were analyzed for 13C enrichment of leucine and alpha-ketoisocaproic acid, and expired gas samples were analyzed for 13CO2. Resting leucine flux was higher in the FS, and there was a slight increase in leucine oxidation. During exercise, leucine flux did not differ between PAS and FS but leucine oxidation rose markedly. In the FS, leucine oxidation was 25 +/- 7 (SD) mumol.kg-1.h-1 at rest and rose to 75 +/- 21 mumol.kg-1.h-1 during exercise; in the PAS, oxidation was 20 +/- 5 mumol.kg-1.h-1 at rest and 52 +/- 17 mumol.kg-1.h-1 during exercise. These data indicate that the high rate of leucine oxidation previously found during exercise was increased further by a 3.5-day fast.

conclusion: the high rate of leucine oxidation previously found during exercise was increased further by a 3.5-day fast.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Leucine supplementation and intensive training.

A Mero, Sports medicine (Auckland, N.Z.), Jun 1999

Leucine, isoleucine and valine, the branched-chain amino acids (BCAA), make up about one-third of muscle protein. Of these, leucine has been the most thoroughly investigated because its oxidation rate is higher than that of isoleucine or valine. Leucine also stimulates protein synthesis in muscle and is closely associated with the release of gluconeogenic precursors, such as alanine, from muscle. Significant decreases in plasma or serum levels of leucine occur following aerobic (11 to 33%), anaerobic lactic (5 to 8%) and strength exercise (30%) sessions. In skeletal muscle, there is a decrease in leucine level and a reduction in glycogen stores during exhaustive aerobic exercise. Basal fasting serum leucine levels decrease by 20% during 5 weeks of speed and strength training in power-trained athletes on a daily protein intake of 1.26 g/kg bodyweight. The leucine content of protein is assumed to vary between 5 and 10%. There are suggestions that the current recommended dietary intake of leucine be increased from 14 mg/kg bodyweight/day to a minimum of 45 mg/kg bodyweight/day for sedentary individuals, and more for those participating in intensive training in order to optimise rates of whole body protein synthesis. Consumption of BCAA (30 to 35% leucine) before or during endurance exercise may prevent or decrease the net rate of protein degradation, may improve both mental and physical performance and may have a sparing effect on muscle glycogen degradation and depletion of muscle glycogen stores. However, leucine supplementation (200 mg/kg bodyweight) 50 minutes before anaerobic running exercise had no effect on performance. During 5 weeks of strength and speed training, leucine supplementation of 50 mg/kg bodyweight/day, supplementary to a daily protein intake of 1.26 g/kg bodyweight/day, appeared to prevent the decrease in the serum leucine levels in power-trained athletes. According to 1 study, dietary supplementation of the leucine metabolite beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) 3 g/day to humans undertaking intensive resistance training exercise resulted in an increased deposition of fat-free mass and an accompanying increase in strength. Muscle proteolysis was also decreased with HMB, accompanied by lower plasma levels of enzymes indicating muscle damage and an average 50% decrease in plasma essential amino acid levels. Furthermore, BCAA supplementation (76% leucine) in combination with moderate energy restriction has been shown to induce significant and preferential losses of visceral adipose tissue and to allow maintenance of a high level of performance. Caution must be paid when interpreting the limited number of studies in this area since, in many studies, leucine has been supplemented as part of a mixture of BCAA. Consequently, further research into the effects of leucine supplementation alone is needed.

conclusion: According to 1 study, dietary supplementation of the leucine metabolite beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) 3 g/day to humans undertaking intensive resistance training exercise resulted in an increased deposition of fat-free mass and an accompanying increase in strength. Muscle proteolysis was also decreased with HMB, accompanied by lower plasma levels of enzymes indicating muscle damage and an average 50% decrease in plasma essential amino acid levels. Furthermore, BCAA supplementation (76% leucine) in combination with moderate energy restriction has been shown to induce significant and preferential losses of visceral adipose tissue and to allow maintenance of a high level of performance.

conclusion: Leucine is now known to interact with the insulin-signaling pathway with apparent modulation of the downstream signal for control of protein synthesis, resulting in maintenance of muscle protein during periods of restricted energy intake. Leucine also appears to modulate the insulin signal and glucose use by skeletal muscle. While total protein is important in providing substrates for gluconeogenesis, leucine appears to regulate oxidative use of glucose by skeletal muscle through stimulation of glucose recycling via the glucose-alanine cycle. These mechanisms appear to provide a stable glucose environment with low insulin responses during energy-restricted periods.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Anabolic effects of leucine-rich whey protein, carbohydrate, and soy protein with and without β-hydroxy-β-methylbutyrate (HMB) during fasting-induced catabolism: A human randomized crossover trial.

N Rittig, E Bach, HH Thomsen, AB Møller, J Hansen, M Johannsen, E Jensen, A Serena, JO Jørgensen, B Richelsen, N Jessen and N Møller, Clinical nutrition (Edinburgh, Scotland), 2017 06

Protein-rich beverages are widely used clinically to preserve muscle protein and improve physical performance. Beverages with high contents of leucine or its keto-metabolite β-hydroxy-β-methylbutyrate (HMB) are especially anabolic in muscle, but it is uncertain whether this also applies to catabolic conditions such as fasting and whether common or separate intracellular signaling cascades are involved.To compare a specific leucine-rich whey protein beverage (LWH) with isocaloric carbohydrate- (CHO), soy protein (SOY), and soy protein +3 g HMB (HMB) during fasting-induced catabolic conditions.Eight healthy lean male subjects underwent four interventions (LWH, CHO, SOY, and HMB) using a randomized crossover design. Each trial included a 36 h fast and consisted of a 3 h basal fasting period and a 4 h 'sipping' period.Forearm net balances of phenylalanine (NBphe, measure of net protein loss) improved for all groups (p < 0.05), but more prominently so for LWH and HMB compared with SOY (p < 0.05). Muscle protein phosphorylation of mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) and its downstream targets eukaryotic translation factor 4E-binding protein 1 (4EBP1) and ribosomal S6 kinase 1 (S6) were distinctly increased during LWH consumption (p < 0.05). The ratio between autophagy protein microtubule-associated protein 1 light chain-3β II and I (LC3II/LC3I, a measure of autophagy activity) was decreased during LWH and SOY intake compared with the fasting period (p < 0.05).LWH and HMB have superior anabolic effects on muscle protein kinetics after 36 h of fasting, and LWH distinctly activates the mTOR pathway. These novel findings suggest that leucine-rich whey protein and/or HMB are specifically beneficial during fasting-induced catabolic conditions.

conclusion: LWH and HMB have superior anabolic effects on muscle protein kinetics after 36 h of fasting, and LWH distinctly activates the mTOR pathway. These novel findings suggest that leucine-rich whey protein and/or HMB are specifically beneficial during fasting-induced catabolic conditions.

RightNOW · 2019-04-07 23:58:47 UTC

But… but… if you take leucine, it doesn’t take you OUT of the ‘fast’ and hence could not measure the “fasting-induced” conditions? Isn’t that the going theory?

Each trial included a 36 h fast and consisted of a 3 h basal fasting period and a 4 h ‘sipping’ period.

I admit I don’t understand what that means. So this was ‘after’ the fast?

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-08 00:24:13 UTC

My interpretation is that Leucine is anabolic and preserves muscle during fasting. It doesn’t stop catabolism, but it stops the catabolism from impacting the lean muscle, and so it accelerates the fat burning instead.

I’m sharing because it’s always better for more people to look at the sources…

I have been taking the Leucine while fasting and feeding. It’s always 0.8g in the morning and 4.0g before eating (refeed) or after a workout (fasting).

It does make me very thirsty and I am pretty sure it’s driving an insulin spike, albeit is a very short one. I recognize this as sudden sleepiness… but it goes away in 30 mins or so.

That’s one of the big differences between Leucine and Carbs. They Leucine actually makes ketones when metabolized… AND it make Acetyl CoA for energy… AND it creates an insulin spike that is anabolic. It’s unique among the amino acids.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-08 11:36:00 UTC

Hmmm… well… day 1 of phase 2, cycle 2

Almost no weight gain from last nights refeed with the final tally at 12lbs two day gain from 172 to 184.

Now that’s interesting because that’s almost the exact same weight lost over the 5 day fast where I lost 11lbs.

I wonder if this week’s 5 day fasting will repeat the sawtooth cycle again.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-08 13:30:12 UTC

Last night, I decided to eat a second meal since my ketones haven’t been dropping much… no Leucine either… and ketones crashed hard from 3.9 to 0.9

So last night ended at 81G, 0.9K = 5.0GKI
This morning, woke up to 77G, 2.0K = 2.1GKI

Since I’m trying to target 3.0 ketones, I looked back over the weekend while refeeding and it looks like eating three days is about right before dropping out - here are the ketone readings:

And here’s the day 1 starting line (phase2, cycle2)

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-08 18:46:06 UTC

I can’t find any before pics so here’s the closest when I was about 220… and it’s not much but I’m in the blue shirt.

And today in the gym

Not sucking in my gut either. I do vacuums but this is not sucked, tightened or vacuum… focused on arms.

I’m not good at selfies… so that’s the best I know how to do.

Biggest overall change is my waist size from 46 to 32 (so far)

And I know my shoulders are worthless but I had a shoulder injury and just couldn’t train.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-08 19:27:04 UTC

Pre-gym 78G, 3.3K = 1.3 GKI
Post-gym 70G, 1.3K = 3.0 GKI

@Dread1840 I know you’re not a fan of measuring, but this is one way I track my “effort”

That 2.0 ketone drop was over an hour. I see that as a fat burn calculation for each of my workout events… or any physical stressor… ice, UV, sauna.

It’s an interesting way of tracking the intensity of the physical exertion… 2 ketone / hour consumption feels decent.

It happens when I eat too, but for different reasons.

Over time, my body adapts though and starts being able to do more with less and that lets me know that I need to up the intensity to keep it pushed.

We don’t have many bio markers so this is useful for my n=1.

Don_Q · 2019-04-08 19:39:00 UTC

Damn @Karim_Wassef, you’re looking jacked!

Whatever you’re doing workout wise, it’s working for you. I would have guessed 19%-20% BF based on the picture. What bodyfat % are you targeting? I know you mentioned somewhere but I’ve since forgotten.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-08 19:45:56 UTC

I’m targeting 12% by May but it’s not looking good.

Fasting for 19 days… DEXA said that’s I lost 7lbs of real fat and went from 25% to 22.5%. The “scale” said I’m 23% this morning and that should be a good reading since I ate over the weekend.

I don’t feel 23%… whatever that means…

RightNOW · 2019-04-08 23:30:00 UTC

Well I think you look fabulous. But I’m just some chick on the internet…

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-09 00:15:40 UTC

Thanks for the support. I still have a ways to go.

I was hoping the extended fast would get me there sooner rather than later, but we’ll try the cycle fast for two weeks. If I don’t see the benefits, I might go for another extended fast for the rest of April.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-09 00:56:11 UTC

I think there is a loss of lean mass with any weight loss path… just a matter of degree. Keto is just less destructive vs. other weight loss mechanisms.

With fasting, there is mass loss… the question is still whether the lean mass returns on a refeed.

RightNOW · 2019-04-09 01:45:58 UTC

I would still feel better if I’d seen ref to more studies that considered the next two weeks of refeeding to be ‘part of’ the fasting protocol so the rebound is part of the data.

Alpha · 2019-04-09 03:41:17 UTC

my observation is that the lean mass will return

The fear I read about of loosing lean mass makes me confused

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-09 03:43:06 UTC

It isn’t fear. It’s a concern given the mass lost on my long fast.

I’m looking to drive recomposition with more muscle and less fat to minimize bf% to get to 12%… I can gain muscle and fat… and I can lose muscle and fat… but I want to gain muscle and lose fat.

CaptainKirk · 2019-04-09 04:08:50 UTC

Karim,
I have been a MWF (ADF) type person for many months.
I am trying to lose the last 10lbs, down to 190, and it is very slow going (lots of food reactions).
I need to restrict my feeding windows a bit more, and be tighter on my controls.

But I am trying a M&F eating schedule this week… I think the 3 day fast, eating, and a 2 day fast will really help. I will actually REGULATE my calories a little bit. Normally I eat until full. And that HAS BEEN 3lbs of Bacon or 1lb of Pork Sausage in the morning and a Big Steak in the evening.

I am 99% carnivore, allergic to eggs and dairy.

Thoughts on the value of the 3 day vs. 2 day of fasting?

At which point do you think it is not enough eating during the week?
(I am giving myself until April 30th to get to 190), which is 2lbs/wk… But I feel like I could be fighting against a weight my body hasn’t seen in 30 years!

Alpha · 2019-04-09 04:32:49 UTC

I did not mean you about the fear

but wherever I read or listen to videos, they always warn about muscle loss like if it were irreversible.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-09 04:33:45 UTC

Kirk,

Here’s how I see it… your body has been building up in preparation of a period where there won’t be any food. It’s been preparing to fast - all our lives. And then, when you need it, it’ll know what to do to keep you alive.

This is why I don’t fear fasting. This is how our ancestors survived some really really bad times. It’s why we’re here. When you don’t give your body food, it knows what it’s supposed to do…

As far as how to fast, or how long to fast, or how to feast… This is very individual. I didn’t even know my own body until I started measuring its response to things. In fact, I continuously don’t know my own body because it is constantly changing and adapting to the things I do to it… it’s a wily one!!

2 days fasting? frankly… I don’t consider it fasting. For the first day, you’re really still living off the food you ate. For the second day, your gut is still fermenting… Unless you exert a lot of energy, you’re not really tapping into much with 2 days. That’s the case for me, anyway…

I think 3 days fasting is a good base for me. Basically, it’s one day of real fasting for the reasons above… It usually takes me 3 days to get into deep keto unless I really hit the gym, sauna, UV, and cold packs to burn off energy… that’s why I do 5 days.

As far as regulating calories on refeed. I think it’s ok as long as you get your protein in. I consider 0.7g / lb of lean muscle as basic protein to avoid losing muscle. If you want to limit fat, that’s up to you… but I’m not a fan of caloric restriction and especially not with fasting. You need to cut your body a break so it “works” with you.

When you play - play hard (eat to satiation)… when you work - work hard (fast to empowerment)… I’m just not middle of the path. I get there by cycling and I use measurements to guide me.

But that’s my way - you will need to find yours. You can start with your proposed plan and measure your progress and iterate. But I will tell you that the scale is pretty meaningless as an absolute… it’s a directional marker… I consider DEXA to be the more valid measure.

And I wish I had an RMR because I do believe that it is an important indicator of long term metabolic health… but we each do what we can.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-09 04:35:19 UTC

bodybuilders are always afraid of losing muscle… they work so hard to gain it… and when they diet down, they usually lose so much weight and a lot of it goes down the drain… lean muscle and fat … to get shredded.