Karim's Extended Fast Tracker - come along for the ride

[Karim_Wassef]

So I’m still considering the question of gluconeogenesis in breaking down lean muscle during a fast and I’m getting two conflicting answers…

Dr Fung says that protein catabolism flattens out after the first day or so (graph by Dr Kevin Hall):

https://idmprogram.com/fasting-and-muscle-mass-fasting-part-14/
His thesis is that it’s all about whether you exercise or not - and my own experience supports that lack of exercise deteriorates lean mass… but where is the amino acid coming from to fuel the muscle gains? I’m hoping it’s loose skin, but that would require anabolism in the muscle and catabolism in the excess skin…

But other sources say that it lasts for 7 days before the body switches over

Alanine = lean mass breakdown (losing muscle)
Lactate = bi-product of glycolysis in the muscle - Cori cycle (recycled from using glycogen by muscles)
Glycerol = backbone of fats when releasing fatty acids (losing fat)
Propionyl CoA = catabolism of amino acids and fatty acids (losing fat and muscle)

I believe that the difference in duration between the two is that Dr Fung is assuming a fat adapted body and the conventional sources are carb adapted.

Otherwise, my 5 day fast is the equivalent of intentional mass loss since I would be in high level gluconeogenesis for the entire duration…That’s my understanding, at least…

what do you guys think?

[RightNOW]

Well… but… I kind of assumed that “autophagy” was the breaking down of every kind of cell, certainly to include protein. A lot of people are fasting for autophagy. So wouldn’t we be assuming that there will be a protein loss – and most of it might be a good thing?

[Karim_Wassef]

Sure. Autophagy is where we go deep into fasting and I got there with my first phase at GKI < 1

I was expecting that the refeed would fill back up the necessary mass loss and that happened everywhere except for 4lb of lean mass in my thighs (that I neglected to train).

The refeed recovery did work everywhere else though.

In phase 2, I’m intentionally trying to avoid autophagy and just stay in deep ketosis (GKI 1-3) to avoid the risk of losing lean mass. I’m also training my legs a lot more to compensate.

So if you believe scenario 1 (Dr Fung) where lean mass loss drops after day 1, then the 5:2 fast is the same as my original 19:9 fast because both would only have one day’s worth of lean mass catabolism.

If you believe scenario 2 (conventional) then the 19:9 fast only had 6 days of lean mass loss and the rest was limited while the 5:2 would have almost the entire fast consuming lean mass.

[Karim_Wassef]

well… I went too far and ended the night at 54G, 3.0K, 1.0GKI …

Interesting that I got here by the end of night 2…I did UV yesterday and then lifting, sauna and cold packs today.

[RightNOW]

Would someone be so kind as to remind me how you’re getting the GKI number?

[Karim_Wassef]

Sure.

GKI = G / K / 18

[Karim_Wassef]

Day 3

Down another 2.4lbs so that’s about 7lb after 2.5 days. Might be another 3lbs of water+food flux left in me before I’d believe the scale is really moving.

Morning GKI = 74 / 1.9 / 18 = 2.2 so in the sweet spot

I do worry about glucose over 60 since that’s the gluconeogenesis that may be catabolizing lean mass

High energy

Cold but not chilled

Planning: lifting + sauna + UV + cold packs

[Karim_Wassef]

I also think that’s eating vegan protein and fat is different because of the fiber content. Seeds & mushrooms are my primary sources here and the fiber fermentation can last for days continuing to generate short chain fatty acids… its good because it’s a fat source but it’s not my lipids… it’s food that I’m still living off of.

Animal protein and fat is much simpler… but that phase will come in May.

So any ideas on the duration of gluconeogenesis (few posts back)? Any thoughts on how to determine (or direct) the source material (lean mass, lipid oxidation)?

[Alpha]

How is that different from animal fat with lettuce for instance?

You will have the vegetable fiber and the saturated fat.

[Karim_Wassef]

I don’t eat lettuce with my meat

Seeds are very high in fiber compared to lettuce which is mostly water.

[CaptainKirk]

I am confident my doctor called it…
The hernias were there, and made worse by my 50 inch belly.

As I lost my FAT CAP, my intestine would poke through, and that was painful,
it would also be more prone to tearing at the seams (top/bottom).

So, losing the weight did not cause them, it UNCOVERED them.

When you get them fixed, go to a doctor who will do a FULL separation of the skin from the muscle, and LOOK For ALL of your hernias, and fix them all in one pass. It takes a bit longer to heal from, but he found 2 more and repaired them all. I am grateful.

My good buddy was NOT so lucky. He has been back TWICE now for hernias near the one that was fixed, he is QUITE unhappy about it. He has been taken offline since October 2018 until March!

Now that they are fixed, I am going REAL slow. I am training my core ISOMETRICALLY. I load a light weight band from left to right, holding at my center. And I simply hold it there. then switch sides. It’s amazing how you can train a muscle without moving it, which can tear things easily when you think about the mechanics of the long lever your arms can create!

I am working with a guy who is specially trained in this. I certainly don’t want a repeat of what I have already been through!

[RightNOW]

Thanks! So my GKI would be (74/2.8)/18=1.468 round to 1.5. Is there a chart somewhere of what the different numeric outcomes represent? (Also, I’m assuming that the keto# I need is the blood measure, not the breathe measure. Which was 3.8.)

Kefir fixed my rice/wheat gluten intolerance symptoms nicely, though I have to be drinking it regularly, but I haven’t yet tried it against nuts/seeds (which instead of making me inflammation-miserable and asthmatic, just hurt like hell 2 hours after eating for 3 solid hours – it’s the colon in that case not the upper intestine)… since the test itself could potentially be so miserable. (The ‘test’ against the other was just chance and good luck.) I am not sure I digest certain mushrooms at all. So as much as I genuinely love nuts and mushrooms I don’t much eat them. I can’t imagine primarily living on them but I suppose some people do!

I’ve been reading this book “the longevity diet” by that guy you posted the video of, who does the ‘fasting mimicking diet.’ And although I respect him, and might at some point at least try his temporary-pseudo-fasting approach, he hates meat, cheese all but a couple, and saturated fat, which makes his entire advice-set contrary to the only diet I’ve found that I like and feel ok on. (He loves him some nuts and veggies though. He’s basically ovo-lacto-vegetarian, or… I think he called it pescatarian.)

He emphasizes that what I call submacronutrients – not just “protein” but the type of amino acids in that protein, and so on – have different effects on our body. I need a longer life. I think it would be very interesting to feast maybe 5 days on say, 3 simple foods, and then change out one each cycle, and see if the body’s response in terms of either weight loss, weight regain, or strength or DEXA (if only I had a measure for that) was different.

(That might seem repetitive-food, but this is from someone who once ate crockpot lowcarb pork chili verde for something like 37 meals in a row, in 4oz containers about 5-6 times a day. I lost a boatload of weight during that tiny era.)

[Karim_Wassef]

GKI uses blood glucose and blood ketones.

My GKI graphic for the extended period has the delineation of the zones:

0-1 autophagy (rapid fat and lean loss)
1-3 deep ketosis (rapid fat & some lean loss)
3-6 nutritional ketosis (fat loss)
6-9 mild ketosis (maintenance)
9+ anabolic (weight gain)

Those are my interpretations.

[Karim_Wassef]

I also like fermented and pickled veggies for digestive health- sauerkraut, pickled ginger, pickled olives, pickled onions, pickled lemons…

Seeds and nuts are very fiber rich so they promote fermentation if your gut has the right bugs.

[Karim_Wassef]

Pescatarian is eating fish

I’m carnivore most of the year

I’m vegan March and April

I’m pescatarian November and December

And I fast 3 days a week usually (wed-thurs-fri) except when I do these special fasts like 5-2.

[RightNOW]

I also like fermented and pickled veggies for digestive health- sauerkraut, pickled ginger, pickled olives, pickled onions, pickled lemons…
Seeds and nuts are very fiber rich so they promote fermentation if your gut has the right bugs.

I’m a fermentation freak too! I just got a bunch of stuff for doing veggies – but then began a fast lol – I am a cayenne pepper nut, and I’d like to try pickling eggs. I am a homemade kefir evangelist. That stuff saved me! Changed EVERYTHING about my reaction to wheat and rice.

I have a big setup for aeroponic cloning and hydroponic gardening waiting for me to finish painting the back room (with mold-resistant paint) to start the setup. I want to experiment with growing high-sun stuff like garlic, onions, peppers, tomatoes, indoors at any season. I have 78K lux of grow lights and a full spectrum in there somewhere and am really excited about it. I hope to ferment what I grow!

[Karim_Wassef]

Broccoli sprouts are my latest experiment… and yes, I really am a carnivore

[RightNOW]

I told my best friend that when the fast and refeed are over I’m going to try and switch to a diet that has more beans, the occasional corn tortilla, a lot more veggies, and sprouts. So it’s so funny you say that. I haven’t made sprouts in a decade. I’m going to have to up my carbs to do that diet though.

I’m wondering what a truly mixed diet would end up with, in terms of weight and how one feels. Fasting, keto-ing (<=~20ecc), LCing (<=~45ecc), MCing (<=100ecc) – the latter being rare for obvious reasons – and maybe use my ancient periodization approach for weight lifting to instead apply to that choice-set, so it would be somewhat randomized. Obviously one would not be in keto at any point unless chance put fast/keto/LC back to back. But two days each as the ‘cycle’. It’s not necessarily that I think it’s a great idea as that it’s an idea I have never actually tried. Which makes it a great idea solely so I can track it and see the results.

Edit: the convenient thing about still being so significantly overweight is that I’m likely to lose weight no matter what I do, as long as I’m not into the 3500 calorie range or higher (It’s a miracle of bacon and mayo for me even to get to the 2500 calorie range frankly). But I tend to mono-food for convenience (make a big taco or enchilada casserole, or chicken curry, and just eat that for every meal until it’s gone – 2-3 days of time). That might force me to broaden my horizons a bit.

I have a very difficult time eating enough. Probably my body telling me I’m too fat so stop eating FFS! I promised myself I will make a much bigger effort going forward.

[RightNOW]

Actually if I’m going to do that I should make it more fun and make a second version of MC that is no-meat, or other food-specific focii that might show how my body reacts to certain things.

I mostly live on meat and cheese, with hot peppers, garlic, and occasionally onion and tomato. Sometimes alfredo or curry. I want to be more courageous with my food.

[Karim_Wassef]

I keep away from carbs primarily because of their long term health risks. If my glucose gets into the 90s, I’ve done something very wrong. The fat loss is nice, but I focus on fasting to get that at this point.

My biggest concern is lean mass loss and gain at this point… need to keep it up to get to my bf% goals.