Karim's Extended Fast Tracker - come along for the ride

Karim_Wassef · 2019-03-29 01:59:51 UTC

It’s been a rocky day with readings all over the place…

63G, 2.9K, 1.2GKI LAST NIGHT FASTED
60G, 2.0K, 1.7GKI MORNING FASTED
79G, 2.3K, 1.9GKI NOON PRE-WORKOUT FASTED
80G, 0.6K, 7.4GKI 2PM POST-LIFTING & SAUNA FASTED
86G, 1.8K, 2.7GKI 4PM PRE-UV FASTED
75G, 1.6K, 2.6GKI POST-UV FASTED
69G, 2.6K, 1.5GKI 7PM PRE-DINNER
72G, 1.6K, 2.5GKI 8PM POST-DINNER & NAP

This is another one of those instantaneous GKI readings that are the result of a dramatic consumption of ketones that biases the “autophagic interpretation” of GKI. The general idea is that GKI is representative of the insulin to glucagon ratio… but when heavy exercise consumes a lot of ketones and causes glucose to rise in response, the GKI as a mirror of hormonal state is temporarily lost… at least that’s my interpretation because there is no insulin increase that reflects the increased glucose… it’s gluconeogenesis due to exercise needs vs. insulin and glucose from exogenous sources. Likewise, while ketones are consumed, there should be addition glucagon released to generate replacement fatty acids… so the results are actually completely backwards - false “bad”

It does make me wonder if it’s not possible for the GKI to also be backwards the other way… low ratio when the hormonal ratio is actually poor. I think it’s possible if an insulin spike causes the glucose to fall low which would show up as a “low reading” during high insulin. And if insulin is high, then glucagon will be down regulated… so another false… false “good”.

So it’s not the instantaneous GKI that is meaningful, instead it’s the GKI continuum in the context of what’s happening. The change in GKI and the drivers of that change are just as important in interpreting what it’s actually telling us.

Just thinking out loud…

Karim_Wassef · 2019-03-29 06:30:21 UTC

I’ve been studying the KREBS cycle to better understand the conversion of glucose and fatty acids into energy… the vids before were great, and this site showed a really nice breakdown of lipolysis (tearing up fat to release glycerol and fatty acids so the glycerol forms the base of glucose and the fatty acids get converted to acetyl CoA so it can feed the KREBS cycle). Glucose can also get converted by glycolysis into Pyruvate and then acetyl CoA also to feed the KREBS cycle.

https://opentextbc.ca/anatomyandphysiology/chapter/24-4-lipid-metabolism/

and

I cannot figure out what controls which of the two activities happen… how does the body choose to rip apart amino acids to feed the KREBS cycle -or- rip up lipids to do the same. It goes back to Don’s question about taking a spoonful of glucose to mitigate the effect of gluconeogenesis from lean mass. I believe that the insulin effect would be more damaging than any benefit… and then there’s the potato guy who had the idea of potato fasting (more glucose cycling)… I understand how many of these cycles and processes CAN & DO happen. I do not understand the drivers and controllers of the processes. The body is very capable and can solve the energy problem so many ways… but what hormones control what it actually does?

Glucose conversion to acetyl CoA happens though “Pyruvate oxidation”
Fatty acids conversion to fatty acetyl CoA happens through “Beta oxidation” and needs Carnitine to get into the mitochondria.

Here’s where I’m at… it’s all about glucagon and epinephrine that drive fat burning for energy. Glucagon is signaled by low blood sugar and epinephrine is basically adrenaline… so… danger and no food?

Here’s another nice view that includes fat, protein and carb usage…

and

Karim_Wassef · 2019-03-29 02:39:54 UTC

On a lighter note. Here’s my vegan OMAD dinner:

On the far right is a pickled ginger and sauerkraut in tahini (my own weird combo) … I use it as a dip with seaweed

The three packets of dried onion powder seaweed on the far left …

Then 2 sliced avocados with lime, salt and smothered in EVOO in the middle left…

A bowl of sauteed onion, asparagus and mushrooms in avocado oil, mustard, spicy chipotle, and coconut cream (my own recipe).

Top right is a mug of pickles, picked olives, picked ginger, pickled lemon (I love my pickles)

And the middle top are the bowl of nuts (macadamia, almonds, pecans) and bowl of seeds (pumpkin and sunflower)

Didn’t count, but I think that should be more than 70 carbs and 90 protein … and probably over 3000 calories. … should fill up the amino acid and glycogen requirements…

I was sore from lifting and feel asleep after that feast…

Karim_Wassef · 2019-03-29 04:46:49 UTC

new view

Karim_Wassef · 2019-03-29 06:33:44 UTC

Insulin reduces metabolic rate…

Alpha · 2019-03-29 06:45:24 UTC

very interresting

Karim_Wassef · 2019-03-29 12:45:29 UTC

Think that should be about right.

OldDoug · 2019-03-29 14:21:44 UTC

The evidence that high insulin is not desirable is certainly adding up.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-03-29 15:01:54 UTC

I thought dry fasting was hard when coming off water fasting…

Nope… it’s just hard

Karim_Wassef · 2019-03-29 16:33:38 UTC

After such a big meal last night, I was sure my ketones would drop and GKI rocket over 3… but…

77G 2.2K 1.9GKI
74G 2.8K 1.5GKI

I am convinced that the Leucine is playing a role in raising my ketones. I upped the dose yesterday to a daily supplement total of 4g spread 0.8g morning, 1.6 pre workout and 1.6 post workout. I also supplemented 5g of Carnitine … each 0.8g Leucine to 1g of Carnitine.

That seems to stop my ketones from falling even if I take in excess carbs like I showed yesterday. Of course, I’m still very fat-adapted too and 70% still comes from dietary fat.

I’m a carnivore, but if anyone doesn’t think you can’t do Keto vegan… I’ve pretty much done that… not a preference but I have done it.

It’s like fasting within fasting within fasting

First, fast off animals (saddest part actually)
Then, fast off more than one mean (OMAD)
Then, fast extended
And then fast cyclical

I do think that there are cheats that really help though… MCT, Leucine, ACV, Coffee…

MdmButterfly · 2019-03-29 16:41:25 UTC

Wow!!!

I have just finished reading this entire post and am totally fascinated with all the data and science! A good bit goes riiiiight over my head, but caused me to do some thinking and googling about things lol. Thank you for sharing all of this!

I’ve just begun my own extended fast and only recently found this forum… though I’ve been doing keto and IF for awhile now. I’m considering starting a post to chronicle my journey, as I’m so encouraged and motivated by yours…not that my data or info would be quite so scientific, lol.

I’ll be keeping up with your thread as you continue… and am quite curious to see how the next scan goes!

Karim_Wassef · 2019-03-29 16:52:09 UTC

Welcome and thanks… hope anything I share helps.

Regina · 2019-03-29 20:08:12 UTC

I forget which keto doctor recommended taking leucine and lysine to raise ketones. I was fascinated to learn that these are the only two “pro” ketone amino acids, and the others actually can lower ketone levels. Love this thread.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-03-29 21:08:57 UTC

Ok… drumroll

Over the last week of refeeding, I gained 15.5lbs of lean mass, and lost 1.8lbs of fat…

That’s just the refeeding window effect.

From start of the fast till now = 19 days fast + 7 days eat (interrupted by 1 day fast)…

Starting was 194.4 with 140.3 lean, 48.4 fat and 5.8 bone.
Final result is 183.7 with 136.8 lean, 41.4 fat and 5.6 bone.

So overall lost 10.5 lbs with 7 lbs fat and 3.5 lbs lean.

I also think my skin is tighter after refeeding.

But here’s the cool part… my visceral fat started at 1.86 lbs. dropped to 1.29 fasted, then dropped again to 1.02 post-feeding… in a week, I lost 22% of the remaining visceral fat. Overall awesome.

I’m sitting in the RMR now… will update with all my data as soon as I can.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-03-29 21:19:00 UTC

RMR up also… not as much but I’ll have to check the ratios later.

I guess there’s nothing quite like ribeye for raising RMR… but this also corroborates the lean mass recovery.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-03-29 21:21:51 UTC

7lbs of fat in 19 days is decent… 0.4lbs per day is close to what I had expected. Still think that 3.5lbs of lean mass is a lot but I’m thinking its mass I don’t need… the detailed analysis will tell us more.

Don_Q · 2019-03-29 21:53:37 UTC

That’s awesome! I’m really happy for you. You must feel like a million bucks right now.

Truth be told there was still a little bit of error that creeped into the DEXA though. Your wife’s diligent and heroic refeeding efforts resulted in an additional 1.5lbs of fat gain during the refeed. We are never more primed to store body fat than we are coming off of a fast and that 1.5lbs needs to be added to the weight loss from the actual fast, so the net loss was actually more like

8.5lbs fat loss
3.5lbs lean

I don’t know how the heck dehydration affects DEXA estimates of fat, but it sure looks like it does. Wait a minute, I remember somebody saying something like that…

If we’re playing “The Price is Right” rules (closest without going over), I’ve got to be a contender for the win. Is there a prize???

Karim_Wassef · 2019-03-29 23:12:24 UTC

Actually, I lost 1.8 lbs more fat during the refeeding! I have some theories…

Don_Q · 2019-03-30 00:02:20 UTC

No, what I mean to say is that I don’t believe you gained 15lbs of muscle, or that you lost 1.8lbs of fat between DEXA’s (though I concede it’s quite possible given your post fast GKI afterburner). My theory is that for whatever reason, the DEXA algorithm was unable to measure either one accurately in your dehydrated state.

It makes me wonder whether the anecdotal stories about fat cells storing water might be true. Is it possible that fat cells store water when you are severely dehydrated? That might cause DEXA to overestimate bodyfat when severely dehydrated? I dunno much about that stuff, but I know someone who has compiled research about a startling array of weight loss/metabolic topics…

Do you have any theories on why DEXA would underestimate body fat @atomicspacebunny?

atomicspacebunny · 2019-03-30 02:34:57 UTC

I think DEXA is probably as close as your going to get to any of at least visual accuracy?

Machines can spit out numbers on an x, y, axis of index averages on compiled data from spread sheets to give us an idea of what something might be?

I personally would be more concerned about how much visceral adipose fat (VAT) I’m seeing?

Most of us are more fixated on getting rid of the white adipose tissue (WAT) fat pads?

This one here really brings reality to the table even if you are thin on the outside, you MIGHT be fat on the inside? To me obesity is not defined by how fat you are on the outside as some would mistakenly be mislead to believe?

TOFI [1][2] (thin-outside-fat-inside) is used to describe lean individuals with a disproportionate amount of fat (adipose tissue) stored in their abdomen. The figure to illustrate this shows two men, both 35 years old, with a BMI of 25 kg/m2. Despite their similar size, the TOFI had 5.86 litres of internal fat, whilst the healthy control had only 1.65 litres.

Subjects defined as TOFI with body mass index (BMI) & 25 kg/m2 have increased levels of many of the risk factors associated with the metabolic syndrome. This phenotype is a further refinement of “metabolically-obese normal-weight"[3][4][5] (MONW).

Subjects defined as TOFI have been described as being at higher risk of developing insulin resistance and type II diabetes due to the fact that they have reduced physical activity/VO2max, reduced insulin sensitivity, higher abdominal adiposity, and a more atherogenic lipid profile. Another important characteristic observed in this cohort is elevated levels of liver fat. It is shown that overconsumption of fructose can lead to TOFI by inducing inflammation associated cortisol release.[6] …” …More