Karim's Extended Fast Tracker - come along for the ride


(Karim Wassef) #527

So started the feeding cycle at 172… two days later, I’m at 183.8… that’s a net +11.8 lbs

I started this fasting cycle at 183.2 (Monday morning April 1st), so I’ve gained weight on this 5:2 fast with one more feeding to go before its called… maybe I’m pioneering “fasting your way to gains”. :laughing:

That’s while OMAD and vegan… so you can imagine me on carnivore. Or SAD… my weight of 255 was not an accident.

Nick - still sticking to your bet?? :slight_smile:

Tonight is one more (and last) day of refeeding.

I don’t think it would be fair to measure the gain from Friday morning (fasted) to Monday morning (fed) and call that as the refeed gain…

Seems more meaningful to wait another day or two and take Tuesday or Wednesday as a more accurate measure of net refeed effect… Friday morning to Wednesday morning?

That’s disjointed so maybe it should be Wednesday to Wednesday? But that’s not refeed gain, it’s more net gain or loss…

What do you guys think?


(Doug) #528

Karim, I think the ~.5 lbs. per day of fat loss is a good bet. Other than that, the lean mass and water retention thing needs to sort itself out.


(Karim Wassef) #529

A gallon of water is ~8 lbs so it’s dense enough to make a big difference. Need a correction factor.

Wondering if it’s better to do 6:1 fasting cycles vs the current 5:2… or maybe I really just need one meal a week (OMAW) 7:0?


(Neil) #530

I’ve noticed recently that I get super thirsty on feasting days. Glad it’s not just me!

I was recently out of town for a week and ended up with an eating schedule of 40h feasting, then 90h fasting, then 40h feasting again. My weight went 157 lb (fasted) -> 170 lb (+13 lb from feast) -> 159 lb (-11 lb, net +2 lb after fasting) -> 167 lb (+8 lb from feast #2). Like you, my weight swings around a lot when I’m cycling between feasting and fasting!

5:2 (actually 144h fast : 24h feed) has been working well for me. I find that if I shift to 4:3 I maintain my weight, and at 3:4 or more I’ll gain weight, but at 5:2 I can consistently lose 1-3 lb/week. I haven’t tried 6:1.


(Karim Wassef) #531

Thanks Neil. Yes- that mirrors my experience exactly.

The unknown is the real fat to lean mass composition.

I’m frankly not interested in losing weight. I look and feel fine. I want to lose the remaining lower belly and loose skin, but my focus is body fat % due to muscle gain.

I have been over 190lbs for decades… being 170 feels like a “lightweight” and I don’t really like it.


(Karim Wassef) #532

So my morning ketones are actually much higher than I expected after yesterday’s feasting … 1.23 GKI


Thinking of doing my first fast beginning tonight... questions
(Doug) #533

:blush: It makes a huge difference. Once ate a lot of really salty pretzels - later calculated it would take 18 lbs. of water just to get me back to normal salt concentration in the body, to say nothing of all the carbohydrates. I can always count on 10 lbs. going away quickly when starting a fast - after 24 hours or maybe 36, like from dinner one day to the morning of the second day after that.


(Windmill Tilter) #534

CHEATER!!!

I don’t think I could gain 9lbs if you locked me in a Krispy Kreme overnight while on a saline drip lol. You sir have level 1000 water retention skills.:smile:

I’m not liking my odds. Did we bet money??? :flushed:


(Karim Wassef) #535

no money, just fun.

But at this rate, I’ve already gained 11.8lbs which is ~2x your bet of 6.7 and 1.5x my bet of 8.2

I think with another day coming… we’re both going to be very wrong. That’s why I proposed taking the “end measure” on Wednesday to allow the water retention to dissipate.

The good news is that this is the first cycle, and there are three more with more betting cycles to go…


(Doug) #536

:smile::sunglasses:

Karim, a few times I’ve felt like there is an “overshoot” thing going on - the body swinging back toward one way and going too far or over-correcting. Just a thought and all this stuff remains fascinating.


(Karim Wassef) #537

I agree. It’s adapting to the fasting by “prepping” more.


(Windmill Tilter) #538

Just had an epiphany. @Karim_Wassef, how long did your rmr test take? Is there a timestamp on the printout?


(Karim Wassef) #539

It took about 15-20 minutes… I think the first 5 minutes, they were just level setting and then they collected the data with each breath.

At the end, they went back and looked at the total data over time and removed the extremes (highest and lowest) datapoints, and used the remaining to determine the average.


(Karim Wassef) #540

Dr Bikman on gluconeogenesis…


(Windmill Tilter) #541

Thought so. It may not have been long enough for an accurate RER. My Korr device has a 2 min calibration cycle, a 3 minute wrm up and it requires 12mins for RMR and 24 minutes as a minimum setting for RER. Minimum time for an RER for me is 30 mins with self calibration.

I just changed the setting on my machine from RMR+RER to just RMR, and my RER went up to .9. Since I’m 48 hrs fasted, so this us physiologically impossible.

It wouldn’t shock me if they conducted the test below the minimum necessary for a valid RER to jam in more appts per day.

The next time you go in, get a picture of the device with brand & model, and google the manual. I bet they’re cutting corners to book more appointments. The RER # they gave you (.79) was bullshit.

If they’re intentionally cutting corners, it wouldn’t be particularly difficult to parlay that into 3 new tests done correctly gratis.


(Karim Wassef) #542

I really don’t think so. I was in for an hour and they took their time setting up and there was no one after or even before me… The device had it’s own timer.

But I’ll check it out and see if they’ll let me take a picture.


(Karim Wassef) #543

Leucine while or after fasting:

conclusion: the high rate of leucine oxidation previously found during exercise was increased further by a 3.5-day fast.

conclusion: According to 1 study, dietary supplementation of the leucine metabolite beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) 3 g/day to humans undertaking intensive resistance training exercise resulted in an increased deposition of fat-free mass and an accompanying increase in strength. Muscle proteolysis was also decreased with HMB, accompanied by lower plasma levels of enzymes indicating muscle damage and an average 50% decrease in plasma essential amino acid levels. Furthermore, BCAA supplementation (76% leucine) in combination with moderate energy restriction has been shown to induce significant and preferential losses of visceral adipose tissue and to allow maintenance of a high level of performance.

conclusion: Leucine is now known to interact with the insulin-signaling pathway with apparent modulation of the downstream signal for control of protein synthesis, resulting in maintenance of muscle protein during periods of restricted energy intake. Leucine also appears to modulate the insulin signal and glucose use by skeletal muscle. While total protein is important in providing substrates for gluconeogenesis, leucine appears to regulate oxidative use of glucose by skeletal muscle through stimulation of glucose recycling via the glucose-alanine cycle. These mechanisms appear to provide a stable glucose environment with low insulin responses during energy-restricted periods.

conclusion: LWH and HMB have superior anabolic effects on muscle protein kinetics after 36 h of fasting, and LWH distinctly activates the mTOR pathway. These novel findings suggest that leucine-rich whey protein and/or HMB are specifically beneficial during fasting-induced catabolic conditions.


(PJ) #544

But… but… if you take leucine, it doesn’t take you OUT of the ‘fast’ and hence could not measure the “fasting-induced” conditions? Isn’t that the going theory?

Each trial included a 36 h fast and consisted of a 3 h basal fasting period and a 4 h ‘sipping’ period.

I admit I don’t understand what that means. So this was ‘after’ the fast?


(Karim Wassef) #545

My interpretation is that Leucine is anabolic and preserves muscle during fasting. It doesn’t stop catabolism, but it stops the catabolism from impacting the lean muscle, and so it accelerates the fat burning instead.

I’m sharing because it’s always better for more people to look at the sources…

I have been taking the Leucine while fasting and feeding. It’s always 0.8g in the morning and 4.0g before eating (refeed) or after a workout (fasting).

It does make me very thirsty and I am pretty sure it’s driving an insulin spike, albeit is a very short one. I recognize this as sudden sleepiness… but it goes away in 30 mins or so.

That’s one of the big differences between Leucine and Carbs. They Leucine actually makes ketones when metabolized… AND it make Acetyl CoA for energy… AND it creates an insulin spike that is anabolic. It’s unique among the amino acids.


(Karim Wassef) #546

Hmmm… well… day 1 of phase 2, cycle 2

image

Almost no weight gain from last nights refeed with the final tally at 12lbs two day gain from 172 to 184.

Now that’s interesting because that’s almost the exact same weight lost over the 5 day fast where I lost 11lbs.

I wonder if this week’s 5 day fasting will repeat the sawtooth cycle again.