Karim's Extended Fast Tracker - come along for the ride

[Don_Q]

Starting was 194.4 with 140.3 lean, 48.4 fat and 5.8 bone.
Final result is 183.7 with 136.8 lean, 41.4 fat and 5.6 bone.

So overall lost 10.5 lbs with 7 lbs fat and 3.5 lbs lean.

That’s awesome! I’m really happy for you. You must feel like a million bucks right now.

Truth be told there was still a little bit of error that creeped into the DEXA though. Your wife’s diligent and heroic refeeding efforts resulted in an additional 1.5lbs of fat gain during the refeed. We are never more primed to store body fat than we are coming off of a fast and that 1.5lbs needs to be added to the weight loss from the actual fast, so the net loss was actually more like

• 8.5lbs fat loss
• 3.5lbs lean

I don’t know how the heck dehydration affects DEXA estimates of fat, but it sure looks like it does. Wait a minute, I remember somebody saying something like that…

If we’re playing “The Price is Right” rules (closest without going over), I’ve got to be a contender for the win. Is there a prize???

I stand by my original estimate. I don’t know how the heck DEXA could be wrong about fat, but I think 9.5lbs will be closer than the 5.2lbs the DEXA claimed when you do the follow-up scan.

24.8 lbs lost=
Fat: 9.5lbs
Lean Mass: 3.8 lbs
Water: 11.5

[Karim_Wassef]

Actually, I lost 1.8 lbs more fat during the refeeding! I have some theories…

[Don_Q]

No, what I mean to say is that I don’t believe you gained 15lbs of muscle, or that you lost 1.8lbs of fat between DEXA’s (though I concede it’s quite possible given your post fast GKI afterburner). My theory is that for whatever reason, the DEXA algorithm was unable to measure either one accurately in your dehydrated state.

It makes me wonder whether the anecdotal stories about fat cells storing water might be true. Is it possible that fat cells store water when you are severely dehydrated? That might cause DEXA to overestimate bodyfat when severely dehydrated? I dunno much about that stuff, but I know someone who has compiled research about a startling array of weight loss/metabolic topics…

Do you have any theories on why DEXA would underestimate body fat @atomicspacebunny?

[atomicspacebunny]

Do you have any theories on why DEXA would underestimate body fat @atomicspacebunny?

I think DEXA is probably as close as your going to get to any of at least visual accuracy?

Machines can spit out numbers on an x, y, axis of index averages on compiled data from spread sheets to give us an idea of what something might be?

I personally would be more concerned about how much visceral adipose fat (VAT) I’m seeing?

Most of us are more fixated on getting rid of the white adipose tissue (WAT) fat pads?

This one here really brings reality to the table even if you are thin on the outside, you MIGHT be fat on the inside? To me obesity is not defined by how fat you are on the outside as some would mistakenly be mislead to believe?

TOFI [1][2] (thin-outside-fat-inside) is used to describe lean individuals with a disproportionate amount of fat (adipose tissue) stored in their abdomen. The figure to illustrate this shows two men, both 35 years old, with a BMI of 25 kg/m2. Despite their similar size, the TOFI had 5.86 litres of internal fat, whilst the healthy control had only 1.65 litres.

Subjects defined as TOFI with body mass index (BMI) & 25 kg/m2 have increased levels of many of the risk factors associated with the metabolic syndrome. This phenotype is a further refinement of “metabolically-obese normal-weight"[3][4][5] (MONW).

Subjects defined as TOFI have been described as being at higher risk of developing insulin resistance and type II diabetes due to the fact that they have reduced physical activity/VO2max, reduced insulin sensitivity, higher abdominal adiposity, and a more atherogenic lipid profile. Another important characteristic observed in this cohort is elevated levels of liver fat. It is shown that overconsumption of fructose can lead to TOFI by inducing inflammation associated cortisol release.[6] …” …More

[Madeleine]

No, what I mean to say is that I don’t believe you gained 15lbs of muscle, or that you lost 1.8lbs of fat between DEXA’s (though I concede it’s quite possible given your post fast GKI afterburner). My theory is that for whatever reason, the DEXA algorithm was unable to measure either one accurately in your dehydrated state.

I don’t feel like I’ve followed the details well enough to really wade into this conversation, but the Longo research (above) indicated that there was a lot of organ shrinkage [ooh that sounds bad… how about “organs got smaller”] during a fast, and they filled back to normal on a re-feed, likely with healthier cells. I think it’s reasonable to assume that something similar might happen with other lean tissue, which would account for both the surprising loss of lean tissue in Karim’s first DEXA and also his incredible rebound in the second one.

[Karim_Wassef]

Here’s the total view of composition (ignoring the middle test)

Other includes bone and all other differences to the total… relatively negligible change.

I do believe that lean mass and fat mass have a significant component of water and that the very fasted state biases the composition. Lean mass shrinkage was also very much in the trunk where I expect there was reduction in the size of the digestive system components. The body doesn’t like big changes over a short period of time, so filling the fat cells to compensate would be logical.

It also explains how I would lose 0.2lbs out of 1.2lbs of visceral fat in 1 week while eating when it took me 3 weeks of fasting to go from 1.9lbs to 1.2lbs … I think it was full of water and that finally flushed when my organs returned to normal size.

So I think the lean loss to the legs is real - It’s 2lbs of muscle per leg… and a testament to the withering effects of not exercising while fasting, even after being fat adapted. Frankly, I used to weightlift like a beast in college and my thighs have always been huge for my frame… during times of need, the body economizes…

The trunk GAINED lean mass net…I was focused on chest and arms. The loss of fat was very localized, all around the trunk - which is where I targeted and it worked!

Here’s the detail…

[Karim_Wassef]

And here’s the net RMR change

Interesting that I lost 3% lean mass but dropped RMR by 14%. I would have expected those two to be coupled tighter.

Also the 30% sugar 70% fat seems like a “setting” since it’s what I got with the last RMR also… as if the machine just won’t go any higher in fat reading.

[Karim_Wassef]

Here’s the view including the post-fast view

and here’s the breakdown:

Wasn’t sure if this is the clearest way to represent the change, but the changes in legs and trunk clearly dominate… trunk being the largest recovery and legs still showing a net real deficit. Arms generally maintained.

So the final general conclusion of phase 1 (3 week extended fast, 1 week feed) - Lost 7 lbs of belly fat and 4 lbs of thigh muscle and lost 1/2 of my visceral fat. Loose skin around the middle was very noticeable post-fast, but improved dramatically post-feed

[Don_Q]

Lean mass and RMR are definitely not coupled together. RMR is not even remotely stable in serial fasting folks like us. Speaking of which, I tested my RMR this morning on my spiffy new indirect calorimeter, and found that my RMR had jumped a few hundred points in 24 hrs. Apparently my metabolism likes it when I eat.

It shouldn’t be physiologically possible to move RMR that much in 24hrs, but I do, and so does my serial fasting friend Neil. We’re learning how to change RMR patterns.

https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/don-quixote-tilts-at-metabolic-windmills/79146/106?u=don_q

[Karim_Wassef]

Can you run experiments where you eat different ratios and check RMR?

I’m especially curious about protein to fat ratio… due to the thermogenic effects of some amino acids.

[Don_Q]

Yup. It’s getting downright sciency over at casa de Don_Q. The thermic effect of food should have no effect on RMR. That should only impact TDEE. That’s true in the textbooks anyway. Once you’re “fast adapted”, all the textbook metabolic rate stuff goes right out the window. I can move my RMR by 400 points in 24 hrs if I feel like it. Come to think of it, I literally did that before breakfast today! That should theoretically take months.

[Don_Q]

What aminos do you want to test?

It’s a shame you aren’t geographically closer. It seems silly to have all this metabolic testing equipment with just me using it.

[Karim_Wassef]

Maybe I’ll add Lysine in a future experimental fasting

I think I already corrupted the purity of phase 1 by adding Leucine 2/3 of the way in, but I felt it was the right thing to do.

[Karim_Wassef]

Upstate NY is lovely… but might as well be Canada…

[Karim_Wassef]

For Phase 2, I’m actually going to cycle fast but with a protein shake in the morning…

but wait… that’s not fasting!… I won’t go into semantics… it’s a fast because I’m not eating and the calories are substantially below my needs and dominated by proteins to avoid becoming too catabolic when I lift… so we can call it a “micro-protein cyclic fast with 4 fasting/3 feeding”… aka “phase 2”

I’m going to only use seeds for the protein shake and only once - in the morning in my coffee. Here’s my formula:

broccoli sprouts (Valine)
pumpkin seed (Leucine, Tryptophan)
sunflower seed (Phenylalanine, Tryptophan, Valine)
chia seed (Lysine, Threonine, Histidine)
hemp seed (Phenylalanine)
raw cacao (Methionine, Tryptophan)
tiger nut
salt
ACV
MCT
coffee
coconut cream (smother the protein spike)
Leucine
Carnitine

I will also supplement after workouts with Leucine and Carnitine.

The only missing component in that list is seaweed or spirulina, but I think that’s going to be a little extra funky… coconut cream covers a lot, but that might be a step too far.

I’m still measuring ketones, glucose, weight, GKI, and all the funky results my “smart scale” gives me. If things go wonky, I’m sure there’ll be a red flag.

[Regina]

My grandmother grew up in Churubusco.

[Karim_Wassef]

The 9 essentials - one at a time preferably

Sources of Leucine: cheese, soybeans, beef, pork, chicken, pumpkin, seeds, nuts, peas, tuna, seafood, beans, whey protein, plant proteins, etc.

Sources of Lysine: eggs, meat, poultry, beans, peas, cheese, chia seeds, spirulina, parsley, avocados, almonds, cashews, whey protein.

Sources of Methionine: meat, fish, cheese, dairy, beans, seeds, chia seeds, brazil nuts, oats, wheat, figs, whole grain rice, beans, legumes, onions, and cacao .

Sources of Phenylalanine: milk and dairy, meat, fish, chicken, eggs, spirulina, seaweed, pumpkin, beans, rice, avocado, almonds, peanuts, quinoa, figs, raisins, leafy greens, most berries, olives, and seeds.

Sources of threonine: lean meat, cheese, nuts, seeds, lentils, watercress and spirulina, pumpkin, leafy greens, hemp seeds, chia seeds, soybeans, almonds, avocados, figs, raisins, and quinoa.

Sources of tryptophan: chocolate , milk, cheese, turkey, red meat, yogurt, eggs, fish, poultry, chickpeas, almonds, sunflower seed, pepitas, spirulina , bananas, and peanuts.

Sources of valine include: cheese, red meat, chicken, pork, nuts , beans, spinach, legumes, broccoli, seeds, chia seeds , whole grains, figs, avocado , apples, blueberries, cranberries, oranges, and apricots.

Sources of Histidine: red meat, cheese, white meat and poultry, seafood, soybeans, beans, legumes, chia seeds , buckwheat, potatoes.

[Don_Q]

Upstate NY is lovely… but might as well be Canada…

[Regina]

Love the list of amino acids.

[Karim_Wassef]

Thanks. I do think Leucine is the most interesting one… best place to start.