K9 diet?

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #6

Boy, that took a turn for the weird, real quick! :rofl:

(I love you guys!)

(Jason Christianson) #7

I’m good at that :wink:

(ANNE ) #8

What made me smile the most was not the story regarding the dogs nose and paws getting better. But the fact that having a 50lb box of lard in the house is just so very normal…for a Keto home that is.

#9

I admit I don’t know much about the science of keto & have never got round to reading a lot of the research (one day…), but our old lab had chronic pancreatitis, & couldn’t eat any fat without it upsetting her. When I’d read up about it, one of the causes was listed as having too much fat… but I do agree that if we can’t trust the medical profession, can we trust the veterinary one? There’s big money in it, especially with the special scientific diets from the big companies!

(icky) #10

@Callisto you’re a vet right…? Any ideas? :blush:

(icky) #11

This thread might help Jason

(icky) #12

If her nose has improved, I would keep giving her lard.

You sound like an attentive dog owner, who cares about his dog.

So if she had any adverse reactions to being given some lard daily, I’m sure you would pick up on it and adjust accordingly.

Very happy for you and your dog! I bet she is a lot happier with that health issue resolved!

I may try this for my dog too. He has thyroid problems and stomach issues and is very skittish as he is a rescue dog. If it can help him with any of his issues, that would be wonderful.

(icky) #13

Update: Just put a large spoonful of butter in my dog’s food and stirred it under.

He’s an incredibly fussy eater - to the point of being eating disordered/ slightly anorexic (rescue dog).

But the butter seemed to convince him - his bowl was empty within 5 mins. :+1:t3:

I will be “careful” with this and watch him for any adverse reactions, but will continue to try this. Even if it just improves his appetite and makes his coat shinier, that’d be a good result.

(Ron) #14

I have raised many dogs in my life and it has always been my practice to give them a raw chicken egg in their daily diet just for this reason. Have never had an issue with a dog and dairy and the improvement to skin, hair, nails, and health is very visible.:ok_hand:

(icky) #15

Hey Ron,

I’ve been wary of raw eggs so far because of the “avidin” thing in eggs.

Just googled it again and it seems that re biotin-absorption, it’s no longer a concern. (Five years ago, the CW was don’t give your dog raw eggs cos of avidin/ biotin.)

It seems there is still some concern re trypsin, so I’m not sure about that, re raw/ cooked.

We want to get chickens soon, so getting a few extra chickens so that our cats and dogs can have eggs too seems like a good idea. Raw certainly seems easier/ quicker. I’ll have to give the trypsin thing some thought…

It’s confusing, because ppl have been giving their dogs raw eggs for decades/ centuries to give them shiny coats, so anecdotal evidence seems to imply it works fine.

“An enzyme called ‘avidin’, present in raw egg whites can inhibit the absorption of biotin, a type of B vitamin. This can result in skin problems. Cooking egg white denatures avidin and stops it from preventing the absorption of dietary biotin. However, according to some experts, eggs are so rich in biotin, that avidin cannot prevent absorption of the entire amount of biotin. Consumption of raw egg white for a prolonged period (many weeks to years) can affect biotin levels…”

"…And as for the fear of biotin deficiency, egg whites contain avidin, which is a biotin inhibitor. Biotin is one of the B vitamins and is important for cellular growth, fatty acid metabolism and good skin and coat. Biotin deficiencies are quite rare and it would take a huge amount of eggs to cause one. But here’s the best part …
Egg yolks are really high in biotin, so as long as you feed the entire egg, there’s no need to worry…"

"…The good news is that the egg yolk contains plenty of biotin, so if you feed a dog a complete raw egg the biotin destroying capacity is minimised by the eggs own biotin supply. That is the egg white biotin inhibition caused by avidin is neutralised by the biotin in the egg yolk, however biotin from other food sources can then be used in the dog’s body. Cooking an egg denatures avidin which stops it binding to biotin, however you will still get problems from trypsin being inhibited if your dog is fed raw eggs.

Why dogs need Trypsin

Trypsin is an enzyme found in the small intestine that is necessary for digestion. Trypsin also removes dead skin cells (tissue) and allows healthy tissue to grow. It has been shown that by feeding a dog as little as two to three raw egg whites in one meal can inhibit trypsin to the point of causing chronic diarrhoea in dogs and mal-absorption of many nutrients. Dried uncooked egg white alone will have the same negative effect.

Just like avidin, heat treatment denatures the trypsin inhibitor of egg whites."

(Ron) #16

My dogs get 1 egg a day for six days a week and the seventh day they fast so it doesn’t seem as it would be a problem according to the article anyways. I have been doing it for 60 years and have never seen an issue so I ain’t stopping now. :grin:
I would bet there are lots of worse things in commercial dog foods that do more damage that eggs would and I can’t afford to feed them carnivore daily meals so guess they are just stuck with getting nutrients from those grass fed chickens eggs. :wink:

(icky) #17

Yeah. Sometimes all the (conflicting) dietary advice out there makes you think all sources of food are harmful/ a problem in some way… and to be safe, it’s best to eat NOTHING AT ALL :crazy_face:

This particular thing (avidin) has been stuck at the back of my mind for a few years, so I’ll have to see where I go with it.

My dog is about to be given a serve of grain-free dog food, with water mixed in for his hydration/ kidneys, with a big spoonful of melted butter added, with a scrambled egg added, some vitamin paste and just for fun, I’ve sprinkled some parmesan cheese on top to round it off :joy:

I feel slightly ridiculous right now :see_no_evil:

(icky) #18

And yeah, I frowned when I read that too. As little? Cos the average person feeds a dog 5 raw egg whites per meal?? With the egg yolks removed, of course… as we all do… :crazy_face:

#19

Not a vet - but long time dog owner - and I would say yes to any type of fat that I would eat is fine for bowser. I have heard that metabolically dogs/humans are not that far off from each other - so meat/fat makes sense. And I’m pretty sure our ancestoral dogs weren’t out there grazing in wheat fields🤣

Though I would watch the fat portion - his/her tummy might react. So maybe a spoonful/day?
Also a raw/cooked egg is good for them.

After being on keto for a year and thinking ‘why am I still giving my dog grain??” So we’ve switched our pup off kibble to raw (that has a pretty good portion of fat content) and he’s looking lean and happy.

#20

Hey, sorry for the late arrival! Did something last night other than surf the forum, go figure LOL
Thanks for the tag, @sugar-addict!

Unless there’s a specific medical/sensitivity reason why a particular dog can’t handle extra fat, I think extra lard or butter would be just fine. Great info on it helping your dog’s nose @JasonC! I’ll keep that in mind. I’ve seen two other treatments that have helped: rubbing the contents of a Vit E capsule on the nose a couple times a day, and also coconut oil in the diet seems to help some dogs. But I haven’t seen one treatment that works for every dog so it’s nice to know the lard helped. These are simple cases of dry peeling nose, of course, if it looks particularly bad (a lot of inflammation, eaten-away type of appearance) then I want to be sure it’s not an auto-immune condition, infection, cancer, or something else.

As for eggs, I think they are great for dogs and cats both, my cat gets a couple of raw egg yolks mixed into each batch of food, which gets spread out over several meals. I’m not religious about the raw thing, so if I were going to feed whole eggs, I’d probably cook them. But it’s not because I have evidence of whole raw eggs being dangerous. Just an abundance of caution, plus the fact that she gets SO much protein in her formulated raw diet that she doesn’t need the egg white.

The thing I try to keep in mind is that while we tend to eat variety in our diets, if I’m feeding the same thing to my pets day in and day out, I just don’t want negative cumulative effects over time from deficiencies. I know some people are much better at incorporating variety than I am. But that’s really the main reason for my caution.

#21

I love people who are ridiculous about their pet’s health (if there is any such thing) :smile:

Yes and…

^^^Yes!! Awesome. :smile:

(Jason Christianson) #22

Hey Callisto, thanks for chiming in and all the discussion guys.

You know, I may think about adding an egg to some of the meals, never thought about that. So far, the lard is still going great. FWIW, her paws have improved too, dry skin on the pads of her paws has dramatically reduced. Who knew… Oh yeah, she’s acting more satiated. She’s a lab, so, you know… but it’s relative. Just doesn’t seem to be sniffing around trying to figure out what else she can get her teeth into right after cleaning out her bowl like she used to.

Faaaaaaatttttttt…

#23

That’s such great news, Jason. I’m so happy to hear it! Even before keto for me, but especially now, it just breaks my heart to see those dogs (yes, often labs!) who are being fed some ridiculously small amount of food for the sake of weight loss, always hungry, and not getting any smaller. I suspect the reputation that labs have for always wanting to eat everything in sight may even have something to do with a lower tolerance for the standard commercial diet formulations, but that’s entirely conjecture on my part. I’ve always advocated for higher quality food (lower carb, lower junk ingredients, and higher protein/fat), but now I’m increasingly trying to work in the messaging to clients that calories aren’t what will matter for healthy steady weight loss. I admit that I was spreading the CICO message for a while myself, not knowing any better. But I think if I can get people to move away from CICO for their pets, and if they see results, they may actually begin to consider the weakness of the CICO model in their own lives too.

(Jason Christianson) #24

Well, these results, especially in light of our keto diet, really have me questioning the food we feed her. Where is the scientific evidence that we should be feeding our dogs (and cats) a diet that is only 16 to 18% fat?

We feed Zoe native, as recommended by our vet. It’s gluten free, the carb is brown rice IIRC and the main ingredients are meat. But still, it’s 16% fat. Granted our domesticated dogs and cats are a far cry from their wild counterparts but when big cats and wolves, etc… kill in the wild do they eat the nutrient rich high fat portions or do they only eat the lean bits?

This has all really just got me questioning everything. FWIW, we cut back the kibble by a 1/4 cup and added an egg this morning along with the blob or lard. She was a happy pup.

(Ron) #25

I have always questioned the high protein thing in dog kibble. 30%, WTF?
Sadly when you get the lower protein dog food the added calories come from carbs more than fat. I have reduced my labs down to 1/2 of what I used to feed them in kibble, add a daily egg and buy beef trim fat from the market (pretty cheep) to add to their meals. They ALWAYS eat the fat first followed by the raw egg smothered kibble. They love it and I surly feel better about it.:joy::joy: