K9 diet?

#21

I love people who are ridiculous about their pet’s health (if there is any such thing) :smile:

Yes and…

^^^Yes!! Awesome. :smile:

(Jason Christianson) #22

Hey Callisto, thanks for chiming in and all the discussion guys.

You know, I may think about adding an egg to some of the meals, never thought about that. So far, the lard is still going great. FWIW, her paws have improved too, dry skin on the pads of her paws has dramatically reduced. Who knew… Oh yeah, she’s acting more satiated. She’s a lab, so, you know… but it’s relative. Just doesn’t seem to be sniffing around trying to figure out what else she can get her teeth into right after cleaning out her bowl like she used to.

Faaaaaaatttttttt…

#23

That’s such great news, Jason. I’m so happy to hear it! Even before keto for me, but especially now, it just breaks my heart to see those dogs (yes, often labs!) who are being fed some ridiculously small amount of food for the sake of weight loss, always hungry, and not getting any smaller. I suspect the reputation that labs have for always wanting to eat everything in sight may even have something to do with a lower tolerance for the standard commercial diet formulations, but that’s entirely conjecture on my part. I’ve always advocated for higher quality food (lower carb, lower junk ingredients, and higher protein/fat), but now I’m increasingly trying to work in the messaging to clients that calories aren’t what will matter for healthy steady weight loss. I admit that I was spreading the CICO message for a while myself, not knowing any better. But I think if I can get people to move away from CICO for their pets, and if they see results, they may actually begin to consider the weakness of the CICO model in their own lives too.

(Jason Christianson) #24

Well, these results, especially in light of our keto diet, really have me questioning the food we feed her. Where is the scientific evidence that we should be feeding our dogs (and cats) a diet that is only 16 to 18% fat?

We feed Zoe native, as recommended by our vet. It’s gluten free, the carb is brown rice IIRC and the main ingredients are meat. But still, it’s 16% fat. Granted our domesticated dogs and cats are a far cry from their wild counterparts but when big cats and wolves, etc… kill in the wild do they eat the nutrient rich high fat portions or do they only eat the lean bits?

This has all really just got me questioning everything. FWIW, we cut back the kibble by a 1/4 cup and added an egg this morning along with the blob or lard. She was a happy pup.

(Ron) #25

I have always questioned the high protein thing in dog kibble. 30%, WTF?
Sadly when you get the lower protein dog food the added calories come from carbs more than fat. I have reduced my labs down to 1/2 of what I used to feed them in kibble, add a daily egg and buy beef trim fat from the market (pretty cheep) to add to their meals. They ALWAYS eat the fat first followed by the raw egg smothered kibble. They love it and I surly feel better about it.:joy::joy:

(Jason Christianson) #26

Heh, we’ve fed Zoe 2 meals with the raw egg and she’s doing similar. She eats the lard, then licks up all the egg, pulling the kibble out of the dish then when all the egg is licked up, she goes back to the kibble. It’s funny.

(Ken) #27

Adding eggs and fat to kibble is not really a good idea since most kibble is Carb based. You should try to figure out the food macros if you do it, to make sure you’re not feeding a carb-fat combination that could lead to hyperinsulinemia. Some dog foods don’t list the carbs, but if you add the protein and fat percentages together, you can figure the rest is carbs.

(Ron) #28

I have done that as close as possible with the added fat and protein and reduced kibble, and since there is not a keto kibble product available there is not a lot of alternatives available.
I also have to wonder if your principle (that is human based I assume) holds true with the k-9 body processes? I know there are differences as my dogs always naturally seek out grasses and plants and eat them for unknown reasons to me. Don’t think human physiology could get away with that.
Honestly, I have been doing this type of feeding regime with my dogs for over 50 years and have had many live to long healthy ages. I have only lost one dog to early in his life and cannot attribute that to diet.

#29

I’m really glad that you started this thread & as we’re thinking about getting another dog soon (probably a lab again), will definitely look into diet… we already were determined to do things differently this time, as we feel the diet we fed our last dog didn’t help her health problems, probably contributed (we changed as soon as we realised but maybe too late), so will do lots of reading up before we do have another one.

(Allie) #30

I won’t give my boy kibble at all, he’s never had it as I don’t want to put his health in the hands of any commercial pet food manufacturer - I won’t eat processed food so why would I want to feed it to my best boy?

Breakfast today was minced beef tripe and a raw chicken foot, and his evening meal will be enough mince to hide his meds in (he’s hypothyroid and has slight arthritis) and a couple of meaty beef ribs that I just got out to defrost.

(Jason Christianson) #31

If k9 metabolism is similar enough to humans, that only really matters if her metabolism was deranged like mine, which it isn’t. She’s very fit and not overweight at all.

(Ken) #32

It’s a matter of degree of possible derangement. Just as in humans, dogs can have metabolic derangement without being overweight. Feed your dogs how you want, deny the biochemical possibilities if it makes you happy. I’ll bet you haven’t followed my suggestion to figure out your dog food macro and see for yourself. Rather than just offering your subjective opinion, you could have done a macro nutrient analysis, presented it, and then explained why you do it. The resulting discussion, being science based, could have been very informative.

Dogs eat grass to add fiber, so things move better through their digestive tract. It doesn’t get digested.

I lost a dog many years back due to nutrition issues, that’s why I’ve done extensive research about it.

I always find it interesting when people are strict with their own nutrition, but seem to forget or ignore the basic biochemistry with their pets. I lost my dog to the same reason myself, but corrected it with my following dogs. So, this is a situation I’ve also been in, not some bit of baseless criticism.

There’s lot’s of ways to feed natural, you just have to be creative with your sources. It’s amazing how inexpensive it can be, much less than feeding kibble. You just have to think like you’re feeding a canine rather than a human. Things that are disgusting to people are like Easter Candy to dogs. Nothing like a big bowl of Spleen, Lung, Pancreas, and Intestines.

(Jason Christianson) #33

Maybe I’m interpreting your attitude incorrectly because of the interface here but the way it’s worded it sounds like someone’s got their panties in a bundle.

Just like the fringe folks that get all wound up about grass fed beef, everything organic and all the other other things that in my opinion are crazy, there are things that are major impacts and there are things that are in the noise. I’m going to spend my time and effort on the things that make a big impact with little effort. Adding some fats to my dogs diet has made a noticeable impact so I will continue it until I find evidence it is unhealthy. It’s easy and seems to be worth my time. Likewise, I’m in the process of re-evaluating my dogs food and will likely be changing that up to something less “commercial”. However, am I going to do clinical trials and write papers on dog nutrition? No, I have better things to do with my time. I’ve got my hands full trying to straighten out my own health so I’ll leave the nano-gnats-ass k9 nutrition studies to other folks who have a lot more bandwidth to study these things.

#34

I think what you’re doing, Ron, is great. When it comes to dogs, their scavenger nature in the wild makes it harder to evaluate their ideal nutritional requirements. It’s easier in cats, I’ll use their requirements below in illustrating how to look at dry matter basis below, you can use the same calculator for dogs but obviously the precise percentages of macros would be different and less well-understood.

As FYI to all (not specifically to you Ron, I’m glad your dogs are doing so well!), it’s worth mentioning that the dog has a GI tract that is much more similar to humans. Dogs, however, don’t seem to get Type II DM from typical diet issues, even when they get very overweight. Anecdotally, I have only seen Type II in dogs that have been overtreated with corticosteroids like prednisone, and I’ve never seen it be reversed once it happens. Cats, however, do quite frequently develop Type II DM. It’s strongly associated with weight gain (though there are exceptions here and there) and it often reverses quickly upon putting them on a grain-free high-protein diet. So, it appears there are at least some aspects of our carbohydrate metabolism that are much more similar to cats than to dogs. As much as I do believe we make the same mistakes feeding our pets as we do ourselves in modern societies, it’s also important not to assume their metabolic pathways and nutritional needs are exactly the same as ours. There’s a lot yet to learn here.

I wanted to include a tool for evaluating the macronutrient profile in pet foods. We have to convert all the nutrients to dry matter basis because the moisture content of food can vary so much. To do that, there are calculators you can use. Input the moisture content and the percentage of the particular nutrient, and you then get the actual percentage of the macro in the food. The one I always point clients to is here (it’s a cat nutrition site but the calculator can be used for dog food also):

http://fnae.org/dmb.html

As I mentioned, the more varied diet of the dog makes it harder to evaluate what natural requirements are, I haven’t found a perfect set of ideal macros with which to compare dog foods. But here’s a breakdown of the cat’s ideal food: a wild mouse. Great for comparing with the labelled macros in cat food. (This is a partial screen shot from the TC Feline web site, it’s the base mix that I use to make my own cat’s food). You have to plug in the values into the dry matter basis calculator prior to comparison. The first column is a mouse, then the other three columns are various formulations of the TC Feline raw diets. This lady has done a ton of excellent work on figuring out the best food for cats. There is no question cats have a much higher protein requirement than dogs do, I wouldn’t suggest using this chart directly for dogs though dogs may do okay on a similar diet, I don’t think anyone knows for sure yet.

17%20AM
Screen Shot 2018-07-10 at 8.00.17 AM.png1154×498 164 KB

(Jason Christianson) #36

That’s great info! Thank you!

(Ken) #37

I’ll reiterate, you can feed’em what you want. However, I consider that doing things based on Science is a better path. The first step is to analyze what you’re currently doing, but if you consider a simple macro nutrient analysis, taking perhaps five minutes to be too tough it’s your choice.

A little psychological projection, huh? “Panties in a Bunch” occurs when someone gets upset when their beliefs are challenged, especially if they can’t defend them intellectually. I’m not attacking you personally, just pointing out that if you’re doing things like feeding your dog you should understand the effects. Since I have no idea of how you’re feeding your dog I have no opinion as to if it’s healthy or not. I’m just recommending you find out for yourself, and if you find it’s not optimal, possibly offering some simple suggestions.

Macronutrient analysis is arguably the basis of this board, I’m suggesting you apply the same principles to your dog, possibly adding several years to it’s life. I’ll bet if the subject was your child, you wouldn’t hesitate for a moment. No need to be defensive.

(Ken) #38

Great chart.

I reversed TTD in a dog, he was considered ready for the needle when I got him at six. He lived to 13 in excellent health. He stopped eating on a Friday evening, eventually passing peacefully by my side Sunday night.

#39

Oh, we have the same issues. :persevere:

It’s not that vets are conspiring to make money by causing pets to be sick, I know some people may say that and I have to just deal with it. It’s more that most/all the “education” we get about nutrition in vet school is provided by pet food manufacturers, and virtually all of the nutrition science for pets is being funded by the same.

#40

Ken, I’m so sorry for the loss of your dog, and so glad to hear of your success reversing his disease and giving him a long life.

I’m truly curious here, do you know what caused his Type II? I see it so rarely in dogs (probably 3 cases in my career) and never once in a dog that hadn’t recently been on high doses of steroids. So I’m very interested to know if a diet approach worked for a steroid-induced Type II. I’ve tried it, despite the lack of guidelines for doing so, but perhaps we just didn’t get the formulation right. As I mentioned, I’ve had so few cases of it that I wasn’t able to effectively try a lot of different things. And it was long before I ever found keto for myself. It has been at least 5 years since the last case I saw, probably because (thankfully) fewer vets are using steroids for everything these days, and we have much better treatments for the conditions that used to not respond to anything else.

Edit: actually, I’m going to correct myself here. I’ve probably seen about 6 cases of it, of which about half were secondary to Cushing’s disease, which causes an overload of endogenous corticosteroid. (My brain just categorizes these dogs separately, so I didn’t think of them initially.) Honestly, I’m even more curious to know if diet changes may help stave off or delay secondary Type II for dogs with Cushings, since those are now the cases that we see more often, given that exogenous steroid use is less common. But one of the reasons I’ve been less optimistic about reversing Type II has been that in Cushings dogs, even when the Cushings has been under good control for years, I have not seen the Type II DM resolve.

(Jason Christianson) #41

I’m curious, in the dogs that you see, what proportion of owners feed a supermarket kibble vs “higher quality” food? I say this because I’ve seen more than 6 dogs with diabetes in just a small circle of friends that own dogs, all of which feed the cheapest thing on sale at the grocery store.