A veterinarian's take- our pets go through the same thing

#1

Hey guys! I love the podcasts, and this forum looks awesome! I’m currently on a keto diet with intermittent fasting (guided by IDM). I’m not a medical doctor, I’m a veterinarian. I absolutely love my profession and I have a great deal of respect for my colleagues. But I’m always so fascinated (in watching-a-train-wreck fashion) by the similarities between the two fields in dealing with nutrition, as well as the similarities in some chronic disease conditions that could benefit from a look at diets. I have so many thoughts about this while listening. Here’s a few:

  1. NUTRITION EDUCATION - We had a single semester one-credit course in nutrition. It covered various common animal species, and ours was about 75% large animal nutrition. The small bit about dog and cat nutrition was pretty conventional. The majority of what I heard about dog and cat nutrition came from Purina, Iams, and Hills (mfr of Science Diet) during lunch period lectures with free pizza. If you give out free pizza in vet school, you get a large audience for just about anything. Plus while you’re in school, you can buy any of their foods for dirt cheap for your own pets. I didn’t buy these foods, but I imagine if you go through school feeding these brands to your own pets, you don’t come out of school recommending people stay away from them.

  2. DIABETES - Quick rule of thumb (with occasional exceptions): dogs get Type I diabetes, cats get Type II diabetes. Cats typically get it when they get fat. It is now standard-of-care to start insulin and also put a newly diabetic cat on a very low carbohydrate, high protein diet. In many cats, this will REVERSE THE DIABETES and cause weight loss, especially if the cat is not fed any dry kibble. So, the veterinary community has accepted that new DM cases can be reversed with diet. In this regard it seems we’re ahead of the human side of medicine. But here’s what makes no sense: this STILL has not translated into an across-the-board recommendation for all cats to be on a very low carbohydrate, grain-free diet. Cats are obligate carnivores, they have a particularly high protein requirement. In nature, their protein comes from real meat (not soy/corn/etc), and their carbohydrate intake tends to be limited to whatever happens to be in the stomach of their prey. And what other disease-reversing diet/lifestyle habits are there which are somehow not also beneficial in healthy animals/people as a preventive measure? The lack of logic here is frustrating.

  3. COVERING ONE’S OWN BUTT - I heard the interview on the podcast with Dr. Berry, and I can completely relate to what he says about other doctors not being ignorant of this information, but being quiet about it. Unfortunately, if there is a negative outcome for a patient, the legal fallout of having recommended an “unconventional” approach is completely different from if you made all the standard recommendations. If you recommended a standard approach to a disease condition, and the outcome is bad, you are excused. Something went wrong. The patient didn’t follow your recommendations. They are an outlier, not the norm. Take your pick. But if you made an unconventional recommendation, then there is a risk that everything bad that happens to your patient after that will be blamed on your recommendation. This has never stopped me, because I’ve always felt that if I follow the hard science, and objectively explain any existing controversy to my client, they are capable of deciding for themselves. But this takes time, and in my experience, too many doctors and veterinarians don’t give their clients enough credit. More than once I’ve had discussions with colleagues curious about my dietary recommendations (which include ways to transition to fresh food diets, from highly processed commercial diets), and I’ve been told “It makes sense but how do you know they’ll feed a complete balanced diet? They could feed junk and it’d be your fault when the pet gets sick” Some even say “It’s risky, you should cover yourself.” And I say “I don’t know about your clients, but mine aren’t stupid or lazy. They want all the information, and then they do what I recommend, they totally understand it.”

Ahhh. I feel so much better having gotten that out of my system. :slight_smile: In short, our pets are going through a similar thing, and veterinarians are often in the same position as medical doctors. It’s absolutely worth advocating for their health the same way we advocate for our own. Their nutritional requirements are somewhat different from ours, but I believe they suffer from our current food approaches in much the same way. Thanks for reading!

4oz of Protein at a time
I think extended fasting is bad
K9 diet?
(LeeAnn Brooks) #2

What do you recommend for dogs? I have a black lab mix 95lbs. He’s 5-7 years old. A little hard to know for sure as he was a rescue. I know I should look into better options for him.

(LeeAnn Brooks) #3

Or is that like asking medical advice from a doctor at a dinner party?

#4

Hey there! I am not legally allowed to give specific advice for an animal I’m not seeing, but so long as you always keep your veterinarian informed, I’ll be happy to tell you my general recommendations for all dogs. :slight_smile: Even among veterinarians who believe in tougher criteria for quality nutrition, there will be some differences of opinion.

My first criteria is that there is nothing in the ingredients that says “by-products”. Sometimes by-products can be quality ingredients like some organ meats, but more often than not they are junk. At the practice where I work, probably about 85% of our patients are on by-product-free foods, and one glaring observation we made was that when we saw pets getting cancer at a much-too-young age (like 5 or 6 or 7), with only one or two exceptions they were from the very small (~15%) group of our patients that get diets that contain by-products, usually the very common brands.

My second criteria is no fillers like wheat, corn, or soy. I believe they are no better for animals than they are for people.

My third criteria applies mostly to cats, but could be beneficial for dogs, the jury is out. It’s going grain-free.

Lastly, and this is a super nit-picky criterium but do with it as you will, I really prefer manufacturers that don’t outsource any part of the manufacturing process. When you see dog food recalls, the reason you see 20 different brands being affected is that these brands outsource the actual manufacture of the food. The company making the food will also source the ingredients. So if they buy cheap protein meal from China, for example, you might have something like the massive recall back in 2007 where the protein meal was spiked with melamine and killed many cats and dogs eating some of the most common brands of pet food. Companies that manufacture their own foods tend to be smaller so the specific brands available will depend on where you are, but I think Acana/Orijen are national brands, maybe Fromm and some others.

I also really like adding fresh ingredients or even making the food yourself. But for this it’s important to balance the food. It’s not as hard as it might seem, you can use a pre-mix like Sojos or Honest Kitchen. But for this I would also recommend talking to your vet. Hopefully they support you, but if not, just as with doctors, there are others out there with a greater personal interest in nutrition and will be happy to advise you!

I hope that helps!! Black labs are wonderful, give yours a kiss for me!

#5

Oh, one last thing, in case you’ve looked at raw diets. I should mention that all of my pets (11-year-old dog and two 18-year-old cats) have been eating raw diets their whole lives. For this, I definitely recommend having a vet that will advise you with real science, for three reasons. First, they will let you know if your pet has specific risks that make it a bad idea, they will help navigate the options, and they won’t automatically blame the diet for every little thing that happens. I started with the diet before I was in vet school, and the couple of times my cat had diarrhea the vet I saw was so convinced it was the diet they wouldn’t consider any other possibilities. Very frustrating. It could have been the diet (it wasn’t), but if you have tunnel vision you can’t make a good diagnosis.

#6

Thank you for your take.

While I know you cannot give advice, here is my weird story. On February 20 I had a healthy active slightly hyper spayed 4 year old female standard poodle (she is not particularly a large standard). She used to eat Proplan sport. I had just finishing listening to this podcast http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/the-llvlc-show-episode-1226-daniel-schulof-is-fighting-the-dogma-that-is-hurting-mans-best-friend/27554
that day which talked about all the crap in pet foods.

On February 21 I woke up to a blind dog as confirmed by the vet. Before we could get her to a specialist she started having seizures. We ended up with a neurology appointment. She recovered her eyesight by the appointment and did not have any more seizures once anti seizure meds and steroids were started. The MRI showed a diffuse mass on the left by the visual cortex. The radiologist feels it is a tumor, the specialist vet said he could not rule it out but it could be autoimmune brain disease (although she was a bit big to have that). Spinal tap showed nothing. Earlier this month he added cyclo sporin to her meds. She had a check up last week and is doing better than he expected. He is hoping to reduce her meds next month if she continues to improve or even stays the same. She is doing well, does not seem uncomfortable but is more sedate than usual which may be the seizure medicine. The steroids make her starving so she steals food since my teenagers cannot be trusted to put everything away, I get really upset when she steals carbs. She has gained about 5 lbs despite my feeding her less than what it says on the can.

I put her on a keto diet as soon as she came home from the MRI in February. I looked into the pet sanctuary diet but honestly was nervous about the raw food recommendations. I am also a little nervous about the possibility of pancreatitis with the fat (am I justified in worrying about this for the average dog? Not asking about mine specifically). So I simply do a mostly meat diet with some added chicken stock or bone broth. I use the Merrick 96% when I run out and I order Against the Grain which is supposed to be 100% meat. Note this is not an endorsement of either, simply what I use. If anyone has better suggestions, keeping in mind I will sometimes have to rely on teenagers who cannot cook to feed her.

While I really like both my regular vet who is a no nonsense woman in her 50s and the specialist neither has any worthwhile insight into pet foods or the keto diet. I really like the specialist but he seems to feel that other than keeping her weight down so that she does not outgrow her meds, nutrition is not a focus. He was familiar with some studies that talked about ketosis in dogs but did not seem to think much of them. They both keep telling me that dogs are difficult to get into ketosis.

For the average dog is a keto diet possible and are there any concerns? Has it been shown to help in brain disorders as it does in people situations?

#7

Wow, I’m very sorry for what you and your dog are going through. As for the medications, I hope that the next few weeks gives an idea as to whether they are helping, so your neurologist can more finely tune the therapy.

I think you’re right to worry about pancreatitis with a ketogenic diet (for any dog). We don’t really know all the factors that cause pancreatitis in dogs, but we do see it in dogs that have recently gotten into a pan of bacon drippings or whatever. I’m not aware of any studies on a ketogenic diet in dogs so I’d be hesitant to give any opinions on that. If you happen to find any, I would love to know.

MCTs appear to have some therapeutic effect on dogs with epilepsy, there’s even a commercial diet out there now with added MCTs for epileptic dogs. But epilepsy isn’t the reason for your dog’s seizures, it’s the tumor or other process that was already detected on the MRI. So I’m not sure MCTs would help, or at least not by the same mechanism. If you take your dog off a ketogenic diet because of the risk of pancreatitis, then you may still be able to use some MCT oil. You can ask your neurologist about that, they are probably aware of the MCT study.

I’m in general quite in favor of fresh foods, the thing you have to be careful about is minerals and some trace elements. (Same for the products like 100% meat canned diets, because they’re not intended to be a sole diet.) Dogs on homemade diets tend to be at risk of losing calcium from their bones because there’s not much in meat. Some dogs eventually develop rubbery bones because of this. Some develop pathologic fractures. So just make sure of that. As I mentioned before, premixes like the Sojos Grain-Free premix are helpful and make it a no-brainer.

I’m afraid it’s beyond what we know right now whether a diet change will help further. But honestly, I feel like so long as a diet is balanced and not deficient in any nutrients, just the fact of switching to a fresh diet will have myriad benefits. By the way, if your dog is on cyclosporine, which is an immune suppressant that helps with autoimmune disease, raw meat is generally not recommended. But no matter, I think the main benefits of the raw diets isn’t that they are raw, but rather that they aren’t highly processed into kibble or into a can. There are a lot of raw food proponents who would totally disagree with me on this, and I respect that. But the benefits I see from raw diets I also see with fresh unprocessed cooked diets.

I hope that helps!

(Todd Allen) #8

http://www.ketopetsanctuary.com/

#9

That’s awesome, thank you for the link! I’ll read up on it. It’s quite possible this place will be able to develop some of the best knowledge about dogs on ketogenic diets, it would be nice if some researcher chooses to study these dogs.

Pancreatitis as a result of high fat intake is something we see in dogs, but not in cats. There appears to be a species-based predilection for it. But it’s also true that a dog on a steady ketogenic diet is different from a dog that’s usually on a low quality supermarket kibble who raids the trash can and eats a bunch of bacon fat one day. If these folks are having success with it and not a bunch of pancreatitis cases, it’s definitely worth studying further, in my opinion.

(Todd Allen) #10

Their results with cancer seem very promising.

After I stopped eating processed food, I did the same for my dog and for the past 2 years instead of pet food I’ve been feeding her, an 8 year old rat terrier, the same food I prepare for myself and my wife. We all 3 transitioned through low carb to keto meals with no ill effects. Our dog doesn’t want the salads but loves most everything else such as the eggs, organ meats, fish and dairy. She also readily eats most of the vegetables in our cooked dishes. She eats a higher percentage of calories as protein (guessing 35%) and a little less in fat (~60%) and maybe half the carbs (~5%) that I eat. Two weeks ago at our vet for vaccinations all the staff was commenting on how lean and muscular she has become. We’ve also appreciated that she has no gas and her stools are regular, hardly ever needs to poop other than our morning and evening walks.

(Cathy) #11

What a great thread! Thank you for sharing your personal take on nutrition and pets. I have had a lot of ‘blow back’ from my vet and when my now deceased dog got sick last summer, she saw 4 vets over a period of 24 hours. The first 3 insisted it was diabetes. It was not (finally a vet tech did a b.g. test and she had low b.g.) . Every vet made the assertion that it could also be her raw diet. She had lepto. She could have been saved had they not had their biases. I also had a role in the unfortunate chain of events feeling certain that it wasn’t her food or diabetes. It was heartbreaking.

My puppy is on raw and thriving but her vet begged me to feed her conventional dog food until she reaches adulthood. I declined the advice despite the extreme pressure I felt having just lost a beloved pet. I believe she (the vet) really believes she is giving good advice but as you say, it is much like G.P. - just don’t have the info and are biased.

#12

Todd, that’s really awesome. I haven’t figured out a good way to advise people how to feed their dog a balanced homemade diet without the use of specialized recipes or the pre-mix powders. Honestly, I think this is because so many people (myself including until relatively recently) eat such unbalanced diets themselves that just feeding your dog close to what you eat doesn’t work. But you’re pulling it off really well. I’m not surprised to hear she’s in such great shape!

#13

Cathy, the story about your previous dog is heartbreaking. I’m so sorry to hear it. It’s one of our flaws as human beings that our brains zero in on an explanation and then have so much trouble letting go. I’ve had one patient in my career (knock on wood) who I truly failed, where I should have known better, and because I didn’t use my best knowledge the dog died. My feelings of guilt over this dog will never ever go away. It’s terrible what happened with your dog, and it’s most likely those veterinarians will never make that mistake again. Ultimately, what we need is for the veterinary community and the pet food industry to stop demonizing raw food. Raw food may not be perfect for every animal, but we will never really learn the details of the risks and benefits if they just say it’s bad, despite all evidence to the contrary. I actually don’t know a single colleague who is against the food who actually has experience with it. I understand where your vet is coming from, she’s probably worried about infectious disease, and puppies are definitely more susceptible (which is why they get worms so readily). It’s a trade-off in risks and benefits, like anything else. Your puppy is lucky to have you!

#14

I totally agree!
My husbands old dog was a 16 year old border collie.
She was very arthritic with a dull dry coat and carrying extra weight.
She couldnt jump up into a car anymore and could barely walk down steps.

I changed her to a brand of dry food that had no cereal fillers, as well as lots of fresh bones and kangaroo meat.
Within a week I noticed a change!
She started losing weight and I thought she was grieving for my husband who had died over that time, but she looked brighter in herself.
Her coat started to shed and she eventually grew back a soft, curly coat.
She was more active - eventually able to even jump up into a car for the fist time in years!
I just couldnt believe the change in this old, dying dog to become a younger, playful and happy dog.
People would refuse to believe she was 17 years old.

Sadly, her total deafness did not improve and she was run over 12 months later and killed by a car she didnt hear, but gee she had a happy 12 months since I changed her diet.
I often wonder how much longer she would have lived in better health.

(Ken) #15

Here’s a thread to read. There are several other’s if you use the Search function for"keto pets". I’ve been feeding my dogs a Natural Diet for over 15 years. I reversed diabetes on a six year old Setter that allowed him to live to 13. In Feb I acquired a Drahthaar that weighed over 102 lbs. Since then he’s lost massive weight and should end up around 65-70lbs. A week ago I started an intervention with my neighbor’s lab mix. She’d become massively obese the last six monthis. It’ll take three or four months to get her back to normal.

Pancreatitis appears to be more related to carb-fat combinations rather than to just fat. I have had no problems with the 60% Whole Animal fat macro.

(Trish) #16

I can’t love your post enough! I’m happy to report that my dogs eat a species - appropriate raw food diet which my vet supports. Though both had rocky starts (backyard breeder and puppy mill stud) they are both thriving at 13 and 7 years of age, respectively. I have no intention of ever feeding them crapple and doom nuggets.

#17

Indeed!!! We are mammals, biology matters a lot!!!

Though nowadays it’s much easier to buy commercial organic raw food mixes, or super high quality grain-free kibble with raw coating for when the full raw is impractical, decades ago it was a very different story!

In the late 1980s I learned via health food store pamphlets from the first activists related to pet food reform about how all commercial pet food at that time used Grade 4 meat (not fit for human consumption, byproducts such as diseased parts, and gassed animals from animal control facilities - along with the flea collars some were wearing when gassed). That the food contained residue from pet anesthesia (still an issue is low grade pet food, news reports happen on it every few months) - along with nasty BHT/BHA. And this was vet-recommended? It enraged me in its lack of ethics and its dystopia and how the general public had been deceived - like with “Hill’s Diet” sold at vet offices :frowning:

At the time I switched to “natural” brands that didn’t have by products or chemicals - and started following the guidelines and vita-mineral mix based in Anitra Frazier’s “Natural Cat” book - because there wasn’t much more available in the health food stores books shelves and in the library.

THEN, whilst living in rural Scotland in the mid 90s I got to see my indoor/outdoor cats thrive on their many catches of fresh raw country mice - with amazingly new coats and a new general liveliness. Lost one eventually to roving boys with pellet guns, tragically. But the other - who continued a raw prey and other biologically appropriate meals lived to about age 22 which is apparently unheard of.

I’ve also helped some friends transition their animals onto biologically raw food and seen amazing healing occur. One special story was with a very grumpy, obviously in pain from arthritis, 11 year old tortoiseshell named Punkin. Her coat was dull, the slightest contact or unwelcome adjustment in her posture would be so painful she’d growl or bite - and she avoided walking much around the house. Poor thing! I’m sort of an animal whisperer and definitely an animal guardian - and Punkin was one of very housepets I’d interacted with who refused any affection and with whom I couldn’t establish communication - so uncomfortable was her body.

My friend told me the vet said Punkin was just old and arthritic, had probably been depleted from previously mothered a litter in past before adoption/spaying - and wouldn’t be around for too much longer. My friend had fed Punkin for years on the conventional veterinary-advised diet of grain-ridden low-grade ingredients junk.

When I explained to my friend that an anti-inflammation diet of biologically appropriate raw food with human-grade quality meat & organs and good fat from extra things like sardine oil and butter could really help Punkin, my friend was willing to try. At that time, independent pet stores had started to sell high quality frozen raw pet food - and I showed my friend how to thaw it and serve it and add enticing aromas like sardine oil or torula yeast to the top so as to lure Punkin to the new food. Punkin was finicky for only a couple days - and then starting eating two big meals a day… THEN - About two weeks later in the middle of the night there was some kind of thump downstairs in the kitchen - which my friend cautiously went to investigate. It wasn’t a burglar. It was Punkin ON TOP OF THE FRIDGE trying to open a package of buttery baked good. She had jumped a good 3 feet up from the countertop!!! And within a week or two she started more kitten behavior, like running around the house, chasing her tails, hilarious antics. And, she let me pet her, and purred. What a joyful confirmation of her wellness, and what a blessing personally for me!

Punkin lived many more joyful years - pain free, apparently! Her health recovery inspired various people who knew and loved her to switch their own animals over to some form of grain-free high quality food.

#18

What an amazing story! I remember the “Natural Cat” book, I used to have it! There have been so many other good books since then, but even now, it’s the only book I know of that discussed the fact that cats on a biologically appropriate homemade diet become hypoallergenic to humans. I observed this change in my cats. I had three at the time, and not only did I notice a marked improvement in skin and fur, but even the cat who still had a slight bit of visible dander did NOT trigger my friends’ allergies. People who had never met a cat they weren’t allergic to would come over and be able to play with my cats. My vet at the time said it must be something else. Maybe my cleaning lady was coming over more often or something like that, it was asinine.

I feel bad when I say such things about colleagues, but these are the same biases that occur in the general public, and in the veterinary world there’s not enough hard research (only evolutionary history!) to convince people otherwise. What pharmaceutical company or pet food company (both big funders of research that would be applicable) would, in their right minds, fund studies to show that allergy medications can be dropped, or that shelf-stable commercial pet food is causing allergies in people? This is one of the reasons I like the Morris Animal Foundation. They are a non-profit group that funds animal health research for its own sake, and they funded some of the early research that led to the recommendations about low carbohydrate diets in overweight and diabetic cats. We need more of that.

By the way, I used to make my cats’ food from recipes in books such as Natural Cat, but now I use the TC Feline grain-free cat food pre-mix, and add my own ground chicken and organic chicken liver from Whole Foods. The TC Feline web site is an excellent resource for anyone looking into biologically appropriate cat nutrition. And a web site by an excellent veterinarian called catinfo.org is a great overall resource for nutrition and other health topics.

(Carole) #19

I have a very finicky cat. I’m trying to get her to eat “Keto”. She just loves those treats and dry food. I’m not asking for medical advice but am I overstepping here? Sorry if I am. Any suggestions on how to get her to eat wet food? Thanks. I will understand if you don’t answer!

(Cathy) #20

Thank you for your kind words.