Jimmy Moore goes carnivore, eats much higher protein

marklifestyle · 2019-01-29 14:38:33 UTC

WHOO WHOO. Chugga chugga choo choo.

Adam, I was reading through and was just going to post a link to the [good doctor.] on 2KD(http://2ketodudes.com/show.aspx?episode=113)

or here on youtube

marklifestyle · 2019-01-29 15:39:48 UTC

In honesty Chris, yeah I am technically.

What I meant is that I’m not over medicating nor could that have explained the increase in LBM in 2017 as I had taken it for at least two years prior to that. When I say I have been “accused” it is by those who can’t understand how fasting with timed eating could lead to gains nor do they have any clue how anabolic steroids work. You still have to do the lifts.

Dread1840 · 2019-01-29 16:04:12 UTC

Oh I know, that’s why I worded it that way.

Thousands of people take steroids every day specifically to be bodybuilders, and because they eat like crap and train poorly they make little progress. It’s 98% work that you put in, the drugs are secondary.

richard · 2019-01-29 17:46:22 UTC

One example of how our response to protein differs is shown in a couple of studies by Frank Nuttall and Mary Gannon.

This study in 1984 tested type 2 diabetics given 3 different challenges (50g of glucose, 50g of protein, 50g of glucose + 50g of protein) followed by a glucose with insulin curve for 5 hours.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Effect of protein ingestion on the glucose and insulin response to a standardized oral glucose load.

FQ Nuttall, AD Mooradian, MC Gannon, C Billington and P Krezowski, Diabetes care, Sep-Oct 1984

Type II diabetic subjects were given 50 g protein, 50 g glucose, or 50 g glucose with 50 g protein as a single meal in random sequence. The plasma glucose and insulin response was determined over the subsequent 5 h. The plasma glucose area above the baseline following a glucose meal was reduced 34% when protein was given with the glucose. When protein was given alone, the glucose concentration remained stable for 2 h and then declined. The insulin area following glucose was only modestly greater than with a protein meal (97 +/- 35, 83 +/- 19 microU X h/ml, respectively). When glucose was given with protein, the mean insulin area was considerably greater than when glucose or protein was given alone (247 +/- 33 microU X h/ml). When various amounts of protein were given with 50 g glucose, the insulin area response was essentially first order. Subsequently, subjects were given 50 g glucose or 50 g glucose with 50 g protein as two meals 4 h apart in random sequence. The insulin areas were not significantly different for each meal but were higher when protein + glucose was given. After the second glucose meal the plasma glucose area was 33% less than after the first meal. Following the second glucose + protein meal the plasma glucose area was markedly reduced, being only 7% as large as after the first meal. These data indicate that protein given with glucose will increase insulin secretion and reduce the plasma glucose rise in at least some type II diabetic persons.

This study 2 years later tested non-diabetics given the same 3 challenges (50g of glucose, 50g of protein, 50g of glucose + 50g of protein) followed by a glucose with insulin curve for 4 hours.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The effect of protein ingestion on the metabolic response to oral glucose in normal individuals.

PA Krezowski, FQ Nuttall, MC Gannon and NH Bartosh, The American journal of clinical nutrition, Dec 1986

Eight normal subjects were given 50 g protein, 50 g glucose, or 50 g protein + 50 g glucose. Plasma glucose, insulin, C-peptide, glucagon, alpha-amino nitrogen (AAN), and nonesterified fatty acid (NEFA) responses were then determined over 4 h. Protein stimulated only a modest insulin rise and the area above fasting baseline was only 28% of that after glucose. The sum of the serum insulin area following protein ingestion and that following glucose ingestion was 100.4% of the combination meal. C-peptide changes confirmed the insulin response. The addition of glucose to the protein meal resulted in a 60 min delay in glucagon and AAN rise compared to the protein meal alone. Subsequently AAN and glucagon increased to levels greater than or equal to those observed after protein ingestion alone. In summary, protein is a much less potent secretagogue for insulin than is glucose in normal individuals, and the effect on insulin secretion is not synergistic. Addition of glucose to a protein meal results in a delayed rise in AAN and glucagon concentrations in normal subjects.

So the normal folk behaved as you might anticipate; When given a glucose challenge they saw a rise in circulation, when given protein very little, and when given both about the same glucose in circulation as they did when given just glucose.

Their insulin behaved much as you might expect as well - looking at the area under the curve which tells you how many units of insulin their pancreases produced (in units of μIU•h/ml) in the 4 hours. Protein required very little insulin (22±3), glucose needed a lot (78±8), protein+glucose needed (99±10) a little more than glucose alone.

Type 2 diabetics respond in terms of circulation glucose much the same. Protein intake doesn’t cause a big increase in glucose, glucose causes a large spike, and when given both about the same glucose in circulation as they did when given just glucose.

OK So can we say that type 2 diabetics behave just like regular folk?

Actually no, when we look at the insulin they make everything is different. When given 50g of glucose the area under the curve (how much insulin was produced) was 97±35 μIU•h/ml. That’s about 25% more than a normal person, but a normal person has insulin response to glucose returning to baseline within 3 hours - a diabetic is still high after 5 hours when they stopped measurement. In my own experiments my insulin appears to be elevated up to 6 hours after a challenge.

What is REALLY interesting is how a diabetic responds to a 50g protein challenge. The amounts of insulin produced was 83±19 μIU•h/ml which is not too different from the amount required for 50g of glucose.

Finally (and this will really bake your noodle) when given BOTH 50g of glucose and 50g of protein, the insulin required was 247±33 μIU•h/ml … that is 2.5x the insulin made by a normal person.

What does this mean?

The most important thing I think it shows is that Diabetics have a different response to macro-nutrients than normal people.

And studies like the glycemic index study, and the insulin index study, and the satiety index study from Jenny Brand-Miller at Sydney University which firstly remove all diabetics, or people who had a family history of diabetes … is kind of useless for almost half the population.

“Volunteers were excluded if they were smokers or taking prescription medications,
had a family history of diabetes or obesity, were dieting, or had irregular eating habits.”

collaroygal · 2019-01-29 17:48:35 UTC

Will this be coming to us in video form soon???

Always love it when you pop in with the Good Science stuff.

Dread1840 · 2019-01-29 17:48:38 UTC

Thanks for chiming in, Richard. In regards to this quote, how do you think this relates to a type 2 diabetic that has “reversed” their type 2 diabetes? Should the rule still apply?

richard · 2019-01-29 17:52:48 UTC

It may

Actually the insulin and satiety indexes are the foundation for a couple of well known online services that tell type 2 diabetics what to eat … so yeah I think I do need to do something on the topic.

richard · 2019-01-29 17:57:28 UTC

I have no idea. I’m pretty sure no one else does either.

I do know that even though I have had an HbA1c below 5.3% for 5 years, I still have insulin elevated for 6 hours when I give it a protein challenge ( https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/so-i-did-an-interesting-protein-experiment-with-egg-whites-vs-whey ) … so the underlying hyperinsulinaemia that caused the insulin resistance that caused the diabetes is still there - I’m just not feeding it. My gut feel is that type 2 diabetics are different from birth and that doesn’t change, but we can eat a diet that reverses all the symptoms.

Dread1840 · 2019-01-29 18:00:08 UTC

Thank you for the insight. At least this opens up more questions. I think you could be right in your gut feeling.

LeCheffre · 2019-01-29 18:31:33 UTC

Not to bag on Jimmy (because I’m trying to be a better person, but letting go of a decade of Jimmy Moore dislike isn’t easy), but he has a seriously screwed up metabolism from years and years of yo yo dieting and questionable N=1 experiments. I don’t disagree with your PUFA theory, as they are clearly problematic, but I suspect that Mr. Moore is getting results from the new protocol because he’s closely adhering to it, not lazily drifting. That might be projection, and I’m maybe not terribly charitable to him after the Kimkins debacle and his practically trolling questions and useless presentation at LC Breck 17, but you gotta wonder. The fat bombs may or may not have been nut heavy, but I can almost guarantee they were heavy with artificial sweeteners, to which he may be sensitive, perhaps due to years of use and abuse on this and that LC protocol.

Funny thing: He has 254 posts tagged “Real Food” and 260 tagged “Paleo,” and yet he was pounding fat bombs that may have been high in coconut oil, cheese, maybe sour cream and other things that wouldn’t fit into the 260 items tagged paleo. Or maybe it’s the PUFAs. Or a combination of all that.

Adding sour cream to a ribeye because the ribeye isn’t fat enough? What?

I would follow his experience with many many grains of salt, preferably the stuff mined in Utah…

marklifestyle · 2019-01-29 19:08:02 UTC

Why can I NOT love this more times than 1 Richard?

I must say that the forums is still the best place to exchange information much as we like to trade memes.

akirby83 · 2019-01-29 19:21:10 UTC

This is my theory as well. There’s not too much potential for carb creep on the carnivore diet.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-01-29 19:27:53 UTC

My experience is that protein only becomes a problem if it overwhelms the fat. I too went semi-carni but pushed 70%-80% fat. I used mayo a lot to get there but it’s the same idea.

Also “protein” is too generic. Some amino acids are glucogenic and others are ketogenic, so it depends on which you consume.

I did start eating organ meats - liver, etc… to get a more complete intake of essentials. Muscle protein was insufficient for me. Liver had carbs so I needed to watch it. I’ve recently started loading up with heavy cream too!

My rule is simple… stay above 70% fat always. I’m 45 by the way.

Dread1840 · 2019-01-29 19:29:18 UTC

The only proteins you need contain both, I wouldn’t worry about that minutia. That said, mayo is not good. Please make sure to read the ingredients and avoid those made with any seed oils. <3

Vladaar_Malane · 2019-01-29 19:37:15 UTC

I guess I am confused on carnivore diet, I thought carnivore was only meats, not adding sour cream or something to add fat?

So this is interesting to find out there is other things you can eat, I love steaks, burger, etc.

Dread1840 · 2019-01-29 19:40:17 UTC

You’re not. Everyone has their own interpretation. Animal products is a pretty vague term and can mean processed dairy products to some people. IMO you’re better off with meat, organs, and maybe eggs if you tolerate them. Dairy is usually tough on many folks’ digestion and can be inflammatory (and by proxy cause one to hold onto bodyfat). Then there’s factory-made, pasteurized dairy…just read the labels.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-01-29 19:46:08 UTC

I supplement because I also lift and while natural protein has both, not all foods have them in the same ratio. I like to be selective because my own experience is that some proteins are absolutely terrible for me… whey for example is not good for me… egg yolks on the other hand are awesome!

I don’t use seed oils or most PUFAs. My Mayo is either EVOO or Avocado oil based.

I love my egg yolk and heavy cream so much, I’ve started to sous vide my egg yolks to be able to eat them near raw (135F), whipped and added to heavy cream and ACV with pink himalayan salt and Stevia… wow…

Karim_Wassef · 2019-01-29 19:48:42 UTC

Ha ha, that’s why I call myself semi-carni. I like it a lot, but I add a few things that wouldn’t technically be strict carni.

Mayo has plants. ACV comes from plants. Cream is dairy. etc… It’s not a religion, it’s about finding good things, killing them and eating them… (too much?)

lfod14 · 2019-01-29 19:49:28 UTC

Proud member myself! I screwed up my lifting for over a year because I was afraid of protein, glad I snapped out of that.

lfod14 · 2019-01-29 19:50:43 UTC

Ya but it’s ALSO… an ANIMAL product! BOOM! Cheese it up!