Jimmy Moore goes carnivore, eats much higher protein

(Mark Rhodes) #21

Oh yeah, your blood ketones won’t drop for hours and in some people a day. Remember the amount of blood ketones is proportional to what your body thinks it will need NOT what you use. Which is why I also use a Ketonix as it measures the decarboxylation of BHB into acetone. NOT the actual fat oxidation but as close a measure as possible with home equipment.

(Mark Rhodes) #22

I will say that I have used whey shakes to end a 5-7 day fast. I will hit the gym at 120 hours, and go to exhaustion. I will consume a whey shake and trust the HGH produced by the dfast and resulting insulin spike to cram my muscles full of goodness.

In 2017 I successfully lost 8 pounds of fat and gained 7 pounds of lean per Dexascan BUT it was too many EF s that tired me out mentally

(Robert C) #23

Review some of Brenda’s responses below (who, I think everyone agrees is a muscular person).

I personally think that even during EFs, you can add muscle mass given the right stimulus.

Inferring insulin levels from BG monitor
(Mark Rhodes) #24

and @Dread1840
Just to follow up. Here are my Dexascans charted. In green you will see a time the wife and I were doing EF every other week. I do take TRT therapy BUT I have done that for years prior to keto ( 100mg per week or 1/2 ml). As a baseline nothing in that department changed.

I would need to do a deeper dive into my records to see what kind of keto I was eating then. I do know I would break the fast with whey and BCAA ( bulk supplements) each and every time.

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(Chris) #25

I did read through that thread. I’m sure she is muscular but I haven’t seen her post any photos showing such (admittedly, haven’t looked either). 800lb leg press is pretty impressive, though.

(Chris) #26

Good info. FYI, animal proteins including whey come stocked with BCAAs, unless you’re using them to get aminos in while fasting, it could be a waste of money.

As for the TRT, on a dose like that it’s just getting you up to the baseline you should have. I don’t really see an issue or that it’s “unfair” in any way. :slight_smile:

(Mark Rhodes) #27

Thanks Chris. Neither do I but I was accused of juicing and I just wanted transparency. As we both know 100 mg for a baseline of 440 mg/dl is not even mid bar of a healthy base let alone juicing!!! :smile:

(Robert C) #28

Here is a video from April 2016 so, not really new but, helps address my concern.

If you overeat protein and shut down autophagy all of the time - you might be asking for trouble - long term.

Would it be surprising to find out that cancer rates among people that went Carnivore for a decade or more are higher than people on Keto for a decade or more?

(Mark Rhodes) #29

I was experimenting with 3 G following a workout per Volek. I can’t find the paper now.

(Chris) #30

You’re totally juicing! But that’s okay. If you’re not competing in a drug-tested sport that mandates no use of testosterone, who cares?

(Mark Rhodes) #31

didn’t he include processed meats in this study and not just fresh cooked meats? AND if so might that be a confounding issue?

(Chris) #32

How do you know that autophagy is chronically shut down due to high protein? Autophagy was literally just discovered pretty recently. Does this article take time-restricted eating windows into consideration at all?

Also…sources for that article seem scant, if extant. Unless I missed something?

(Robert C) #33

It might but that could be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

My question is, if you are in mid-life or later, should you be eating protein recommended amounts for a high school or college athlete (people that are intentionally driving growth)?

Would those levels inhibit the natural life-lengthening process of autophagy?

If lower levels are better for older adults - why not get your muscle through strength exercises to force adaptation?

(Adam Kirby) #34

There is no evidence that increased protein consumption on a keto diet shuts off autophagy in humans. This is purely speculative.

Yes it would be incredibly surprising given that the primary cause of cancer is likely metabolic derangement, and people on a carnivore diet tend to get all of the metabolic benefits as those on a keto diet.

(Mark Rhodes) #35

You could be correct. I dont plan eating that much. I follow my hunger cues. I eat to satiety. I doubt that my signals are that messed up.

(Robert C) #36

I don’t.

But, I would guess that since autophagy goes way up in the absence of food, that it is a demand driven process. Create little or no demand and it seems like it would not happen or only a little.

I think time-restricted eating is not really part of this discussion (just because - I think it lowers insulin and increases autophagy regardless of diet type).

(Mark Rhodes) #37

MTor activation is likely a signaling device. Longo has developed a fasting mimicking diet that by passes some of the switches by limiting mTor signals, as I understand it.

(Adam Kirby) #38

I don’t see how being chronically catabolic for years or decades is the optimal solution for human health. It’s the flip side of the coin of most people today being in a chronic anabolic state.

Seems to me the natural human condition is to flux between anabolic and catabolic. Nope, the protein restriction longevity guys have not produced any evidence that is compelling to me. Not scared of the mTOR specter since it’s modulated by more than just protein consumption.

(Robert C) #39

I agree - it is being inferred from the fact that no food increases autophagy.

The better question might be whether (with high protein levels) autophagy is shut down to an unsafe level - providing a hot bed for cancer growth - or whether it is blunted but still maintains a safe background level (regardless of diet)?

(Adam Kirby) #40

Have you watched or listened to Thomas Seyfried? He makes a very compelling argument how cancer is basically caused by metabolic derangement. I’m on the cancer-as-metabolic-disease train until a better hypothesis comes out.

Sadly there is no way to confirm or falsify any of these theories at the moment, so I guess we all have to weigh the evidence for our own lives.