Jimmy Moore goes carnivore, eats much higher protein

(Robert C) #15

I guess I could have been much more clear with my response.

By “Dumping protein” I meant excessive “bro-science” levels of protein - 3 or 4 extra multi-scoop whey shakes each day for example. Doing this with some (I believe mistaken) belief that muscle will grow or at least be maintained.

Simply upping protein a bit to get better satiation, or it makes you feel better or it eases hitting your macros (after becoming fat-adapted) if you can stay in ketosis - great.

Getting and keeping muscle as you age becomes more and more difficult but, from what I have read (i.e. that you can add plenty of lean body mass on 0.6 grams per kilogram) it really seems to be the case that forcing the adaptation - through lifting heavy things - is 90+ percent of the requirement.

(Mark Rhodes) #16

That is not keto protein as it isn’t real food, in my opinion. Plus they whey protein creates an insulin spike that is really unacceptable as a keto option.

Ben Bikman on a recent Human Outliers Podcast with Shawn Baker ( I do not think it is yet available for public consumption) said protein and insulin varies depending on your glucose load. In other words your personal protein threshold is different than mine.

(Chris) #17

Entirely subjective, but no one that I’ve ever seen advocating a level of protein this low was ever very muscular. I’m not lumping YOU into the group because I simply can’t tell from a photo.

47g is what I would require to build muscle on that plan, at a BW of 79.54kg. This is, to me, extreme restriction. Trying to fill in the rest of the day’s calories with fat would leave me a lot fatter (and presumably pretty small muscle-wise). Not only that but protein is used for a lot more than building muscle. Bone is lean mass, organs are lean mass, and both require aminos for maintenance or growth.

(Chris) #18

Dunno man, I’m burping ketones within 20 minutes of consuming a whey shake. Have you tested this with blood?

(Running from stupidity) #19

Yup

(Mark Rhodes) #20

I too went carnivore as I will be attending @amber 's Boulder Carnivore Conference on March 7 and I wanted to attend with some personal experience. In July of 2018 I quit tobacco and gained 22 pounds of fat and 8 pounds of lean tissue per Dexascan. During that time my blood glucose elevated quite significantly lending credibility to to insulin sensitivity created by nicotine ( read about that journey here) . My sugars normalized but stayed high in December so I decided to start January with a 5 day fast followed by carnivore. In my chart you can see my progress. My sugars dropped significantly. I lost a total of 5 pounds so far but I think it has been greater than that as I lift heavy for a 54 year old.

Keto in December
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My average protein consumption in grams is 154 daily. My lean body tissue is 78 KG
My protein intake is almost double the amount of protein recommended for keto…yet I am definitely in ketosis by any measure. I eat mainly steaks, sous vide chuck, burgers, eggs, pork belly and beef liver.

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ORANGE is my fast.
RED is Carnivore.
Green plain Keto ( 2 plus years, no cheats)

I measure both beta-hydroxybutyrate ( Keto Mojo) and acetone in the breath ( Ketonix) because I am anal about measuring [spoiler]shit[/spoiler].

(Mark Rhodes) #21

Oh yeah, your blood ketones won’t drop for hours and in some people a day. Remember the amount of blood ketones is proportional to what your body thinks it will need NOT what you use. Which is why I also use a Ketonix as it measures the decarboxylation of BHB into acetone. NOT the actual fat oxidation but as close a measure as possible with home equipment.

(Mark Rhodes) #22

I will say that I have used whey shakes to end a 5-7 day fast. I will hit the gym at 120 hours, and go to exhaustion. I will consume a whey shake and trust the HGH produced by the dfast and resulting insulin spike to cram my muscles full of goodness.

In 2017 I successfully lost 8 pounds of fat and gained 7 pounds of lean per Dexascan BUT it was too many EF s that tired me out mentally

(Robert C) #23

Review some of Brenda’s responses below (who, I think everyone agrees is a muscular person).

I personally think that even during EFs, you can add muscle mass given the right stimulus.

Inferring insulin levels from BG monitor
(Mark Rhodes) #24

and @Dread1840
Just to follow up. Here are my Dexascans charted. In green you will see a time the wife and I were doing EF every other week. I do take TRT therapy BUT I have done that for years prior to keto ( 100mg per week or 1/2 ml). As a baseline nothing in that department changed.

I would need to do a deeper dive into my records to see what kind of keto I was eating then. I do know I would break the fast with whey and BCAA ( bulk supplements) each and every time.

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(Chris) #25

I did read through that thread. I’m sure she is muscular but I haven’t seen her post any photos showing such (admittedly, haven’t looked either). 800lb leg press is pretty impressive, though.

(Chris) #26

Good info. FYI, animal proteins including whey come stocked with BCAAs, unless you’re using them to get aminos in while fasting, it could be a waste of money.

As for the TRT, on a dose like that it’s just getting you up to the baseline you should have. I don’t really see an issue or that it’s “unfair” in any way. :slight_smile:

(Mark Rhodes) #27

Thanks Chris. Neither do I but I was accused of juicing and I just wanted transparency. As we both know 100 mg for a baseline of 440 mg/dl is not even mid bar of a healthy base let alone juicing!!! :smile:

(Robert C) #28

Here is a video from April 2016 so, not really new but, helps address my concern.

If you overeat protein and shut down autophagy all of the time - you might be asking for trouble - long term.

Would it be surprising to find out that cancer rates among people that went Carnivore for a decade or more are higher than people on Keto for a decade or more?

(Mark Rhodes) #29

I was experimenting with 3 G following a workout per Volek. I can’t find the paper now.

(Chris) #30

You’re totally juicing! But that’s okay. If you’re not competing in a drug-tested sport that mandates no use of testosterone, who cares?

(Mark Rhodes) #31

didn’t he include processed meats in this study and not just fresh cooked meats? AND if so might that be a confounding issue?

(Chris) #32

How do you know that autophagy is chronically shut down due to high protein? Autophagy was literally just discovered pretty recently. Does this article take time-restricted eating windows into consideration at all?

Also…sources for that article seem scant, if extant. Unless I missed something?

(Robert C) #33

It might but that could be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

My question is, if you are in mid-life or later, should you be eating protein recommended amounts for a high school or college athlete (people that are intentionally driving growth)?

Would those levels inhibit the natural life-lengthening process of autophagy?

If lower levels are better for older adults - why not get your muscle through strength exercises to force adaptation?

(Adam Kirby) #34

There is no evidence that increased protein consumption on a keto diet shuts off autophagy in humans. This is purely speculative.

Yes it would be incredibly surprising given that the primary cause of cancer is likely metabolic derangement, and people on a carnivore diet tend to get all of the metabolic benefits as those on a keto diet.