I think extended fasting is bad

#101

That is different from official definition from Wikipedia

“Godwin’s law (or Godwin’s rule of Hitler analogies)[1][2] is an Internet adage that asserts that “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1”;[2][3] that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds. Promulgated by the American attorney and author Mike Godwin in 1990”

Comparison and compare,nothing about just mentioning.Either way,I did nothing wrong by using his name,the user I was responding to made such ridiculous statement,bringing up the H,the most hated bad guy ever,was ideal way to mock its irrationality.

(Rob) #102

That’s exactly what EVERYONE who wishes to avoid the GL label says… good luck with your semantic olympics :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

#103

Ok :pensive: I accept my fate as “that guy”,a internet forum Hitler summoner,let this be my lession :rofl:

(Rob) #104

:grin:

(karen) #105

As I understand it, if you keep giving the body protein, which it will convert into primarily glucose/glutamine/glutamate/glycogen, you may not go into ketosis or fat adaptation. This means that instead of burning mostly fat/ketones and settling into a routine of using up the body’s stored fuel (fat) before using up muscle, your body is begging for more sugar the whole time, when it gets only a little bit (in the form of your 300 calories of protein), it eventually goes into a metabolic slowdown instead of looking towards its own fat for fuel.

I have nothing to add re Godwin’s Law or cat poop, except that we have no dogs and my cat is pooping anywhere but in his litter box, I think he may be Hitler in disguise.

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#106

If that was true fat adaptation would be impossible without fasting.The first thing any keto keto website or forum tells its newcomers is that they will over the span of few weeks get fat adapted.The liver have limited capacity for gluconeogenesis,even if going at maximum,it cant make enough to prevent fat adaptation.

Also,I highly doubt significant quantity of 50 - 60g of protein will be converted to glucose.That conversion happens when the body have so much protein it cant use it all for tissue repair & growth so some gets converted to glycogen as energy store.

The metabolic slowdown and keto adaptation are two independent things.If someone doing high carb diet stops eating,his metabolism will increase in next 2 days but fat adaptation will not occur yet.When someone is doing extreme long fast,metabolism will slow down despite fat adtation.

#107

“I doubt that was the intention and this (NO MM loss) is a strawman argument since the real question is “is the muscle mass loss meaningful”

From wiki “A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent’s argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.”

Quotes from RobC ( the person I was supposed to strawman)
1.“Eating no calories over the same long period of time would provoke the body’s survival mechanisms - muscle preservation…”

2.“you would have more muscle (and less body fat) at the end of a pure water fast than a restricted calorie diet.”

3.“The body does not add muscle (or try to keep muscle) because of what you eat.”

You are accusing me of strawman fallacy while doing no true scotsman fallacy yourself.

(Rob) #108

2 wrongs don’t make a right :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

I can see where you could definitely see RobC’s statements as overly optimistic on protein sparing. I read them differently - muscle preservation as I understand it is a thing but it is a relative sparing, not absolute. Thus you lose some but far less MM as a % of total bodyweight loss. Thus, the second point should be more properly stated that at the end of a water fast, you would have a higher MM % and lower body fat % (effective body recomposition).

None of this, (either way) helps out any of your statements and you sir, are NO SCOTSMAN of any kind. :joy:

(icky) #109

So apart from the fact that there IS NO POINT to this thread…

What is the SUPPOSED point?

Is the merry prankster interested in DOING an EF? And trying to get info for this?

  • It seems not.

Is Mr. Muddled trying to stop others from doing their EFs? Because he is concerned for their health?

  • If so, it seems that everyone who does EF is about a million times more informed than the fact-avoidant OP and is unlikely to be disuaded.

Is there ANY pretence of a point to this circular non-discussion?

Or is this just attention seeking and an opportunity for the OP to diss some peeps?

(Allie) #110

@sugar-addict on that note…

It was cow poop on this morning’s walk.

(icky) #111

Eaten, rolled in, or both? :smile:

:dog: :dog2: :cat: :fox_face: :ram: :cow: :poop:

I’ll tell you something funny - before I moved to the countryside, we lived in a city with a zoo. Next to the zoo was a big forest, where we’d take the dogs for their daily walk.

The zoo had a big compost heap/ dung heap that had a gate so that people couldn’t walk in there, but on the sides it wasn’t fenced off to the forest and alllllll the dogs would run in there and have a field day!!

Lion poop! Elephant poop! Penguin poop! Giraffe poop! You name it :joy:

:elephant: :camel: :rhinoceros: :lion: :monkey: :koala: :crocodile:

The most traumatic experience I’ve ever had re this is tho, that on the other side of this forest was a huge lake and people would go fishing there.

Some fishermen would leave bits of fish, or whole fish that they’d rejected, laying on the banks of the lake. In the summer / during a heat wave, these bits of fish would become quite putrid and the dogs would go and roll in them too!

I swear I dragged the dog into the lake to wash him there and then!!! You couldn’t even walk next to him/ on the leash, it was sooooo bad! And NO WAY he could’ve gone in the car on the way back home!!!

:fish::tropical_fish::blowfish: :dizzy_face::weary::mask::crazy_face:

(Allie) #112

Both :nauseated_face:

OMG I’m so glad there’s no wild animal dung heap here, Chunk would be straight in there! :nauseated_face::joy:

He did the dead fish thing when he was about a year old. Where we live there are lots of lakes and a river and canal too, so we are always close to water of some sort. Well there was a massive dead fish floating on the canal that my old Doberman kept trying to get but never could as he wouldn’t go deep enough into the water. As the canal is still water, apart from the movement caused by passing boats, this huge dead fish just stayed on top of the water for a couple of weeks before finally being close enough for Zeus to reach it and pull it out. So he grabbed it, realised how disgusting it was and dropped it on the grass never to bother with it again.

This stinky disgusting thing sat on the grass untouched for over a week and that week was hot, the fish was in direct sunlight all day every day. Like everyone else, I just ignored it so didn’t see any reason not to let Chunk off the lead on the grass there… he went straight to it! Seriously the stinky boy thought he was in heaven! He rolled and rolled and even ate some of it. The stink was out of this world and even after three lots of shampoo, he still stank of the damn thing! :nauseated_face: I can laugh about it now, seven years later, but at the time I could’ve cried :joy:

(German Ketonian) #113

This is EXACLTY the way Jason Fung has explained fasting versus calorie restriction (CRAP) in one of the very first episode of “The Obesity Code” podcast. He says that we can either draw fat from the body in the case of low insulin (or a fat fast - as this doesn’t spike insulin), or eat and turn on insulin production and being in the “fat storage” mode.

He uses the analogy of a train track junction/switch. The train (your mode of metabolism) can either go one way (BF access mode) or the other (storage mode). Chiefly amongst the triggers/switches/levers is insulin (next to other receptors such as mTOR). It pretty much controls which way the train goes.

I find this analogy really compelling. To me, this makes @kib’s comment spot on. Even the minuscule amounts of protein in black coffee CAN put the body out of BF access mode, if you’re really metabolically deranged (especially through mTOR). 50-60 grams of protein will DEFINITELY create an insulin spike, from what I understand. If you accept the hormonal theory of body fat storage and access, I don’t see how it could be any different than described by @kib

(icky) #114

Yes! They are so PROUD of their new stink, huh? :star_struck: :heart_eyes: :star_struck: :heart_eyes::star_struck:

They adore it!

And look so puzzled and disappointed when we shampoo them :joy:

#115

@BaconIsLifBaconIsLov

Quite a few flags stacking up against you on this post and I can see why. If you come in with an inflammatory statement and then show gaping holes in your knowledge, the highly capable forum members are going to put you right. Please engage civilly and respectfully or flagged posts will simply get hidden from view in the future.

(Brian) #116

I’m not sure how much more simply it can be put. And I agree! It seems that Dr. Fung is not someone the OP wants to deal with. And that’s a shame, since Dr. Fung is one of the most knowledgeable doctors in the area of fasting with tons of experience seeing real life patients that he’s worked with on both short and long term fasts.

(matt ) #117

I was out of pocket this weekend and am just catching up.

This entire post is a mess and is gonna end up locked or closed. Good thing we have tolerant admins.

@BaconIsLifBaconIsLov you are one mistake from being gone. Cut the crap.

#118

It’s also the unpleasantness at the start of the thread in response to Shayne’s post (“if you don’t have the willpower… but for those with enough self control…”). Yuck.

(linda) #119

Why is this thread being tolerated??

#120

It’s a fine line. Provocative posts can end up being fabulous info shares if you can look past the dickish behaviour often displayed by one or two people. I think that is what makes me value this post overall - the input from everyone else. It might end up being best to go through and clean up the crap though and just leave the good stuff.