I follow Dirty Lazy Keto: my way


It sounds delicious!

I don’t understand why anyone would find your messages offensive, or doubt you are in ketosis, when the 50g of carbs you allow yourself on some days only amounts to 200 Kcal. Where would the rest of your energy be coming from? A good chunk, from fat, some from protein, no? I asked that question for myself and was told I had to be in ketosis.

Congratulations on your weight loss! At 52, there’s a probability you’re in menopause and losing weight there isn’t easy! I’m 51 and on menopause. I eat only a max of 30 g net carbs a day and I’m not losing any weight. I also do a lot (I mean it!) of exercise. No weightloss. I’m happy that’s been really easy to keep my weight with this WOE, but I’m just saying, as an example that reducing carbs won’t necessarily work for everyone, if their aim is to lose weight. It isn’t mine.

Lots of the research done about diets in general are using healthy, young men as subjects. There’s very little in common between healthy, young men and women 50+!

The best research I’m aware of with keto dieters isn’t even double blind: they have two groups of people, but they pick the subjects to put into the two groups. One does keto, the other does something else. It’s the research of Dr Phinney. Now, why would anyone trying to prove anything do not do it double blind? I’m still trying to understand. In general, I look for Dr Phinney when I need answers.

I suspect stress is big with us, 50+ women, for instance, and your approach of finding mechanisms that work to relieve your stress and the fact it works for you is encouraging! If I think stress is big with us, it’s because the changes that come with menopause are very upsetting, work against sleep, etc, for many women. Myself included.

So, well done in finding ways to relieve stress AND the fantastic weightloss!


The majority of my energy came from fat even ion high-carb… I definitely wasn’t in ketosis. Getting energy from fat or being in ketosis is two very different things, there is no connection. I was in ketosis while getting no energy from fat too. It’s about the carbs.
It’s a very well-known fact that 50g is too much for many (probably most?) people if ketosis all the time is the goal. For some unlucky people, even 20g is too much but it’s rare.
As it turned out, 50g is a rare occurance so I am pretty sure at this point that the OP is in ketosis most of the time but maybe all the time, who knows? But 40-50g net carbs every day is way too high for quite many people.


I agree, @FrankoBear.

If the topic had been under “Newbies > Getting Started”, then this might be a different conversation.

We’re all different, and you cannot have one-size-fits-all diet for everyone. As we develop our ketogenic journey, it’s important to learn and apply what works for us individually.

I would agree to this @amwassil, if it was under “Newbies > Getting Started” or something like that, but we have to approach this with what works for us. I occasionally “fall off the horse” because there’s something I want to eat, and knowing I’m allowing myself to eat it, that helps me avoid the temptation other times.

It’s about flexibility, and if the ketogenic diet can’t be flexible, then it will end up like all the other fad diets that have come and gone. Sometimes we need to experiment to learn what we need and don’t need to avoid.

Again Michael, I think you’re focusing on the idea of confusing newbies, but this isn’t under the newbie category, and if any newbies come across this topic, that should be taken into context.


I get this cause every time I try to say this to ‘lazy plant eating’ carnivores I get my butt chewed out LOL

I understand your post clearly cause I feel the exact same on the zero carb eating issue when they ‘only cheat a bit like this’ but it works for them and eating plants means they aren’t doing the plan correctly and CONFUSE the newbies on how, why, what concepts, reasons the plan works and more goes out the window and in the end, the plan doesn’t work as ‘promised’ and the plan is blamed.

But with this poster I wished her continued good luck because she said one thing…she stressed her ‘dirty lazy keto’ and her needing to get off the plan every now and then and it was working for her. She made a plan to suit her needs and she sounds in total control of what it takes for her. I don’t feel like she mislead anything at all in her post. The clear path on her post was ‘she does it this way’ and it works.

I absolutely get your post Michael and I don’t think you were ‘coming after the poster’ at all. I think you do like me, you read a post where your plan is being warped and manipulated and you need to respond to tell basically new people that this is not ‘the Keto Plan’ as I do when I read about the ‘plant eating carnivores’ and need to stress that point also.

-------So to me Michael’s post is welcome to keep a newbie on track when reading about HOW other’s approach a life eating change. Just cause one can be more lax and do very well, doesn’t mean we all can :sunny: I think that is good info to be posted in threads as a reminder to new people.

Michael said it in the end of the other post. It isn’t a personal dig at your way of eating that works for you, it is one of those reminder posts to newbies that what fits one mostly won’t fit all. Alot of us come into plans with alot of health damage etc. and need strict plans for healing.

I sure don’t feel that at all from your post. You are not being cruel that I see or misleading what it takes for you to do your plan well :slight_smile:

When a long term plan person reads other’s on very relaxed plans, doing very well, kinda going against the norm for what it takes for most people…they kinda wanna put in info in the thread saying, hey it works for this person, but newbie people don’t stray from what it takes for you.

Abi hope you feel ok about your post and hope you hang around. Many can be more relaxed on their plans but you will read here that many can not ever be relaxed due to the carb addictions and other health issues they face.

(Doug) #25

I’d say the mental/psychological component is substantial to enormous, for most of us. You’re managing that well. :slightly_smiling_face:

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #26

I’m not the Keto Police™ nor Mr. Right. I just think we need to be aware of what we say and how we say it. I make just as many flubs anyone else. Folks disagree with me all the time about all sorts of issues. I’m not picking on @Abi34 specifically. I’ve said the same and/or similar in other places. I’m definitely not saying we shouldn’t have discussions about n=1 experiments and personal results. I think those are important to share.

I do think we ought to be consistent in what we tell newbies, however: stay consistently sub-20 grams net carbs per day and just eat plain keto for several months before starting to experiment ‘off plan’ or ‘alternative plans’ or ‘works for me plans’. I say this only because I think newbies need to get the reinforcement of realizing some good things from keto early on. I read nearly all the newbie posts on the forum and there’s a lot of confusion about keto and lots of unrealistic expectations.

@dlc96_darren I agree that the forum topic structure is helpful. Maybe sufficient.


I agree that it can be confusing. I’m still learning stuff after being keto for nearly four years. I think this is a good place to plug Dr. Eric Westman’s and Amy Berger’s new book, End Your Carb Confusion.

I’ve already pre-ordered my copy. I believe it will be beneficial to new and old ketoers alike.

(Ellenor Bjornsdottir (spare me thy resistant starch spiel)) #28

the two exist on a continuum. you can get most of your energy from fat and still have only trace ketosis.

This seems biochemically impossible, just sayin.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #29

Ketogenesis produces ketone bodies as a byproduct of fat metabolism. So it is incorrect to say there is no connection or to say you can be in ketosis and not get energy from fat. While in ketosis the primary source of energy is fat. Simultaneously, gluconeogenesis uses amino acids, or in a pinch fatty acids, to synthesize the small amount of glucose required by cells/organs that can’t use ketones or fatty acids for fuel.

On the other hand it is very possible to get energy from fat and not be in ketosis. That’s how CICO diets work.

Yes, you have to consume very low carbs to force your metabolism into ketosis to utilize fat most efficiently and healhfully.


The lady who told me her whole office was doing keto and losing weight - just told me this summer ( 7 months later) that most of them have abandoned keto because they couldn’t sustain it. I have fallen off the waggon a few times this summer because I needed some ice cream. I agree that it is important to emphasise to newbies the need to be strict with themselves. But for those who have been in for months and years? C`mon people. Dirty keto is also a way to live. It might not create a weight loss in the higher amount- like 50 lbs somewhat quickly - but it might also be a slow way to lose the weight or keep it at bay.
I have lost 20 lbs with keto since starting last Nov 2019. I have not been successful at fasting except for some days, and so I usually eat keto and keep the carbs under 20g/day. And then I do admit to having cheat days. So I guess I am doing dirty keto too. I should be in a hurry to lose another 20 lbs, but I guess I am not, because it doesnt feel like I am on a diet at all. I love my keto foods, but at times I do need something sweet. We have those taste buds on our tongue for a reason, and fruits grow on trees for human beings too. So if I take another whole year to lose another 20 lbs- then so be it. So I think it is really important to tell newbies how to do keto right. Honestly- it really is. But it is just as REAL to let people who have been on keto for a long long time to tell their story too and their way of dirty keto keeping them losing as well. My take on it is : as long as the scale ultimately shows a loss, I’m Ok with it. I get up in the morning and dont feel food deprived. I love omelettes with cheese or protein bread toasted. I love my steaks and hamburgers and salads and veg. But sometimes- just sometimes- I have the need to indulge myself. I dont beat myself up for it and just continue with 20g carb/day the following morning. Weight loss is much much slower- but when I read of people totally on keto and stalling for months- I think this is comparable to that. I do lose the weight eventually- just more slowly. Do I admire those who have been strict and lost 100 lbs- WOW. You betcha. But I simply cannot be so strict with myself in the long run. So I celebrate the first 20 lbs loss, and look forward to another 20 lbs in about another year.


Yeah, I don’t know why I used that wording, sorry. I meant, you can be in ketosis without eating fat and you can use fat for energy without being in ketosis (more like, on a carby diet, one may slip into ketosis even on a high-carb diet, after all), nothing else!


First I didn’t understand, we get into ketosis without eating fat too… But then I realized I must have been not clear. I meant we can be in ketosis without EATING fat. Of course we can use our bodyfat for energy and in the case I thought of (extended fasting), we actually do that.


I think it depends on one’s goals as not everyone, including newbies, is after weight loss. At 5’6" 130lb F, 82yr that exercised 8-10hrs/week ; was on low-carb WOE for 14yrs+, keto/ carnivore 18/6 for 4yrs and had massive heart attack[HA] 31Aug20 resulting in 2 stents.
I heard all about how Atkins died of HA and my WOE caused my HA. Between hospital, docs and family, I have been eating SAD but am getting back to keto, lazy at the moment. My goal is to control migraines and seborrheic dermatitis. I did do CDK in earlier years.
Thanks for article and good luck.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #34

Can we please retire the myth that Robert Atkins died of a heart attack.

Atkins died on April 17, 2003, at the age of 72.[4] Nine days prior to his death, Atkins fell and hit his head on an icy New York sidewalk. At New York’s Weill Cornell Medical Center, where he was admitted on April 8, he underwent surgery to remove a blood clot from his brain but went into a coma and died from complications. He spent nine days in intensive care before dying on April 17, 2003.[12][13]

An illegally obtained medical report issued by the New York medical examiner’s office a year after his death suggested that Atkins had a history of heart attack, congestive heart failure and hypertension.[12] However, this report contained incomplete medical records. It was later revealed by Dr. Stuart Trager that Dr. Atkins did not have a history of heart attack; instead, Dr. Atkins had cardiomyopathy, a heart muscle disease that was probably caused by a virus, not his diet.[14] His widow refused to allow an autopsy.[14]

Source. If you don’t like Wikepedia then read the cited references.

(Gregory - You can teach an old dog new tricks.) #35

Control, or get rid of them?

Would getting rid of those ailments be worth giving up grains and sugar?

You might be surprised if you gave it a try…


Elimination is goal, mis-worded. I gave up grains and sugar 4 years ago and all carbs on the carnivore elimination diet of meat / water since Jan. I’ve had 1 migraine this year; itching subsided but is coming back since HA and SAD eating. When I am able to choose my food, it will be keto/ carnivore.


I am aware of that but the hospital staff, doctors and my family are not; thus my statement. “I heard”; I didn’t support it.

(Jane) #38

I started in November 2018 and have lost 65 pounds. It mostly came off in the beginning but I found strict keto was too much for me so I have backed off a little. I am still losing but granted it is much slower but I feel I can maintain this WOE (way of eating) much better. This forum has helped a LOT. Don’t be discouraged by anything that is said…there are plenty of GREAT people and advice on here.

(Jennifer M Palacios) #39

This is such a good idea and is something I am going to start doing. Thank you!:raised_hands:


I am with you on planning a non keto meal every now and then. It is a definite mental need for me to continue my keto life. However, it has to be planned otherwise I fear I will spiral. I am only 10 months in and, thanks to covid, couldn’t cheat when things were tough in those first few months. I feel looking forward to a meal helps keep me away from all of the high carb foods all around me.