HWC v. Coconut oil .... why doesn't HWC work?


Just an observation of what works or doesn’t work for keeping blood ketones high and weight loss continuing. I only lose up to 4 lbs per month if everything is managed perfectly, and stall out if not. I find that if I use heavy weight cream as a ‘fat bomb’ to boost the meal by meal fat calorie percentage, that my ketone numbers start to come down … but if I leave the HWC in the fridge and work hard to use coconut oil-based fat bombs and other oil sources, that my ketone numbers come back up and weight starts going back down. Does this imply that I have some kind of dairy intolerance going on? There are no other symptoms (cramps, bloat, gas … non-existent). My blood ketones are always less than 1.0, even if I’m maintaining 80+ percent calories from fats … and if I succeed at that, they run around .7 to .8. With HWC or only 75% of my calories from fat (either), my blood ketones drop to .3 to .4. I have to be pretty religious if I want weight loss to continue … which is fine. I lose 3-4 lbs per month, which isn’t fast, but it’s getting there … got about 30# to go, lost almost 60# so far.

Anyone else had this experience with heavy cream v. coconut (or other) oils?


What about interesterified canola oil? Bad news right?
(Todd Allen) #2

Coconut oil is high in medium chain triglycerides which are metabolized differently than other fatty acids and more potent at raising ketone levels. MCT oil which is refined from coconut and palm oils will raise ketones more than an equivalent number of grams of coconut oil. Taking exogenous ketones in the forms or salts and esters can raise ketone levels even more. These shortcuts to raising ketone levels may not do anything for accelerated weight loss. When ketone levels are high due to burning body fat there is some connection to weight loss but when ketones come from external sources the main impact on fat loss might be if they are more effective at producing satiety than other fats which likely varies a lot person to person.

TOTALLY exhausted 1 month in

Very good summary and thanks … I didn’t know that stuff. It would explain the higher blood ketones. I also experience better weight loss when I use coconut oil rather than heavy cream as a source of fat calories.

(Chris) #4

I’m glad you posted this because I use both HWC & MCT oil to get fat % correct. I kinda thought fat was fat…but the MCT is way more dense - more calories & grams fat per volume.

Of course i can only tolerate so much MCT at once. Anything more than about a tblsp at one meal & in the bathroom all day… Maybe i should try coconut.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #5

I don’t consume ‘fat bombs’ because it would throw off my macros. For the same reason I don’t eat lean meats. That said, I make 1 liter of liquid coffee daily:

My first meal every day is what I call ‘keto coffee’. It’s a mix of fats and proteins to my macros. On days when I have time to use my countertop blender (like today!) this is my mix:


On days when my work schedule does not allow sufficient time to make the above, I have this mix that I add to coffee I purchase at 7/11 on the way to the bus stop. The macros include a couple of pepperoni sticks:


My thinking is that the MCT is a quick start to the day, followed by the more slowly metabolized longer chain fats. I eat lots of fat every day (259 gr / 2328 cals) because I’ve been in maintenance for more than 2 years and am not trying to lose weight. I recently changed my macros to what they are now from 2.93::6.58 because I want to consume more protein but not more calories.


That makes my head hurt… LOL… I get up at 4a, get ready and get out … commute too darn far and start at 6am. 10-hour work day, long commute back. No time for fancy cooking… fat bombs and meat are my ‘fast food’ solution. I get the macros right, and take a whopping handful of supplements to help make up for lack of nutritive variety, then try to do better on weekends. So it goes…

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #7

Yes, the ‘home mix’ requires more prep time. However, the mix for 7/11 takes a couple of minutes.


Couldn’t it just be that cream has more carbs? I avoid the cream because according to cronometer, my carb count goes a lot higher with cream. I would rather get my carbs elsewhere.


That does agree with my personal observations. Whenever I cut HWC, I lose weight faster. I’ll google the topic …


However, pasteurized & homogenized dairy is structurally different than raw milk, and is what most studies have been done with. Our ancestors did really well with cow and goat milk for many millennia, etc.

So, there is no monolithic “dairy” - it depends on if it is processed or not, and whether it’s cow or goat or camel milk in terms of fat ratios, lactose, etc.

Industrial dairy is a processed food imho. The biomolecular differences are real! Beverly Rubik’s article on the Weston Price Foundation’s website is fabulous:

Great additional references here from Chris Masterjohn PhD and friends:

Raw milk (just called “milk” by our ancestors) is legal and easily available throughout europe. For those in the US, this handy resource connects you to local sources - it’s how I found the wonderful raw milk I’ve been buying this last year:

(Windmill Tilter) #12

It’s pretty common to hear folks mention HWC (and dairy generally) as a culprit in stalls. It would’t surprise me if there was something to it.
Hard to say whether it’s an intolerance thing vs a satiety thing. Personally I could happily drink a quart of HWC, which is around 3200 kcal, so for me it would be the latter. :yum:

(FRANK) #13


When you initially began to lose weight, what did your macros look like? I’m curious in terms of macros in grams. I also understand you lost considerable weight, look great in your pictures. I’m a 63 year old guy that needs to drop about 80 lbs, but still trying to find what works for me. Any tips/suggestions?

Also, Vancouver BC, beautiful country. I lived in Bellingham Wa for a few years back in the early 90’s.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #14

My starting macro ratios were: 1.00::2.25 / fat:protein grams :: fat:protein calories

  • 110 grams fat / 110 grams protein / 17.5 grams carbs
  • 990 calories fat / 440 calories protein / 70 calories carbs = 1500 total calories

This proved to be problematic. As I started to increase total daily calories it soon became apparent that I’d be eating more protein than I wanted/needed to. After trying various ratios over the course of several more months and finally stabilizing my weight I had the following macro ratios.

2.63::5.90 / fat:protein grams :: fat:protein calories

  • 231 grams fat / 88 grams protein / 17 grams carbs
  • 2079 calories fat / 352 calories protein / 68 calories carbs = 2500 (2499) total calories

My current ratios are still very close but I’ve increased total daily calories to maintain my weight.

2.59::5.82 / fat:protein grams :: fat:protein calories

  • 259 grams fat / 100 grams protein / 17.5 grams carbs
  • 2331 calories fat / 400 calories protein / 70 calories carbs = 2800 (2801) total calories

Note: calorie numbers are rounded so they don’t add up exactly. I have also changed my method to determine my macro ratios based on Bikman’s protein recommendations. I did that so I could change my total daily calories by changing fat and keep protein amount constant. My spreadsheet also automatically modifies the macro ratios.

Hope this is helpful.