I don’t see @Corals saying anything nasty about being in ketosis. All I understood for her comment is she does not care about being in ketosis just for the sake of it. I think we can all agree there is no need to do obsess being in ketosis all the time. My partner is vegan+sea food (no dairy of any kind, no eggs or any other animal protein except fish in or shrimp couple of times a month). His go A1C is 4.5. he is in ketosis in the mornings. He does eat breakfast, not because he wants to do IF but because he hates it. All I am saying is doing keto just for the sake of being in ketosis despite it’s causing other issues (like a1c going up in lot of cases, including mine and @Corals ) is not the right move. You know I appreciate your comments and I have mentioned that in other posts, so I hope you don’t think I am taking sides. I am having same concerns as Corals, so I can understand her frustration. You are one of the lucky ones that has excellent results with strict Keto. I love these forums as it get to see both sides.
I have no some updates (good news for me) since the last time I posted on the other thread. I will post my update soon. Cheers
Higher glucose over previous years
I agree it’s hard to keep track. One of the unfortunate side effect of being to discuss and share info so easily on these blogs. I had already posted on the other thead, I tried Berberine for months, chromium, cinnamon and bitter melon too. They did nothing, nada. I got a prescription for metformin (reminder, I am not diabetic. Not even pre until the last blood work in Jan where my a1c was 5.7, so doc agreed to prescribe MF). It seemed to help but my avg BG is lately high only when I do a proper Keto diet. So I added healthy carbs back and my fasting BG is not over 95 anymore. I will post it an update about this soon.
Based on the (very) limited reading I’ve come across on berberine, it was certainly worth a try. Good to hear. Onward!
Thanks for adding me here @Corals. I had not seen this thread before and went through all of the discussion and posted a couple of comments before I finally got here. I am really glad you found something that works for you! Not sure if I missed it, what changes do you think that actually helped lower your avg BG and dawn effect? Cutting out red meat, saturated fats and adding a second meal?
Anyway I also have good news. I decided to cycle and stop “proper” Keto for a couple of weeks. I researched various diet’s and I picked “slowcarb” diet. It allows me to add unlimited beans, lentils and legumes. I did not count my net carbs as this is not a VLC diet and counting of any kind is discouraged but I am definitely going over 120-150 net easily. I thought it will be easier than keto as I can eat lentils and beans that I love (chillies, dips, yum) but it’s NOT. LOT HARDER. Here is wny - no fruits. Period. Means no berries. No diary, so no cheese, heavy cream, creme cheese, sour cream in etc. Also this diet needs one to eat 30 grams protein via animal and legumes sources within 30 minutes of waking up. I was only eating within a 4-8 hour window before, but I like breakfast so this 30-30 rule was ok. Worst part NO sweeteners, artificial or natural allowed. So no stevia, monk, allulose and erithrirol. I had Chia pudding a few times with monk, erithrirol to satisfy my craving. The diet allows for one cheat day, not only it’s allowed, it’s mandatory. They explain the science behind why. I did not do cheat day so far but I will today or tomorrow. Now the good news, my FBG went down dramatically third day into this diet, no more dawn effect and average has been going down 3 everyday. I was concerned that my postprandial will shoot up with eating half a pound of beans 3 times a day but shocking it never went up more than 20 and returned to baseline quickly. I would just do this diet permanently if it allowed sweeteners, coconut flakes and diary. Oh well! The idea now is to do slowcarb for a few weeks and back to Keto again. Hoping this will re-train my liver to not dump sugar by putting a slight break on GNG. I just want to let others know I am not anti keto/ketosis. If I was, I would not be here discussing my issues, I would have simply went back to my previous diet whick was healthy version of SAD. I want keto to work for me and willing to do what it takes. So I have decided to cycle and I am really happy I did. I had the best sprint workout in a long time. I can’t wait to get back to Keto in a few weeks and compare results. I think keto is more sustainable than slow carb diet, at least for me! I plan to experiment this summer and come up with a hybrid version for myself.
Fascinating update. Thanks for providing the details and results thus far.
What you’ve described as a “slowcarb” diet sounds pretty complicated (to me) but then again, keto sounds pretty complicated to many newbies also, so I guess simple lies in the tastebuds of the taster.
Apparently it was a very famous diet, made famous by Tim Ferris. He has a best selling book, there are reddit subs and websites. After much research I settled on this one as my high carb cycling diet. I agree, some would argue keto is more challenging… what are you willing to give up? Legumes or treats? Keto has way too many snacks and treats. Slowcarb does not even allow pork rinds (allows real whole pork). Keto allows 30 net grams of carbs that allows for a serving of keto cracker etc. Slowcarb does not allow the Keto flours, wheat gluten, not even dark chocolate unless it’s 100% etc. Keto does not have a specific list of allowed foods, it’s more about staying below your carb threshold. Slowcarb has a list, very small and specific. Moto is if you question if it’s slow carb, then it’s not. Avoid it, lol. It is extremely restrictive that way but makes it less confusing as well. So far I have found SCD very limiting. I know when I am cheating. I have been eating chia pudding with lakanto erithrirol/monk once a day. Surprisingly tonight I did not enjoy it. I hope my taste buds are changing 
@SunnyNC @Corals and anyone else who cares. Here’s where I’m coming from: what I call the ‘evolutionary argument’. The Drs Eades talk about this specifically in the transition to higher carb eating that occurred in the early Holocene with the advent of the so-called ‘agricultural revolution’, contrasting what anthropological evidence tells us about the health of our pre-agricultural ancestors of the Pleistocene.
Executive Summary Keto is the natural, normal and healthy metabolic state for humans to live in and flourish. If there were anything detrimental about ketosis per se we would not be here discussing it. If there were anything detrimental to specific individuals or groups, they have left the pool long ago. Any and all metabolic problems are due to eating carbs. We have zero need to eat carbs/glucose and consuming more than minuscule amounts undermines our health. Every metabolic system, cell, hormone, enzyme, process is affected detrimentally. Very simply: our species evolved to eat little/no carbs over the course of 4 1/2 million years and for the last 8-10K years - 0.02% of that evolution - we’ve gorged on glucose. And steadily increased the amount of gorging. Over the last couple hundred years we have added even more troublesome stuff to the menu. And over the last 75 years added a chemical stew to the mix whose ultimate outcome may be our extinction.
What does this mean on a personal level? Generally it results in metabolic dysfunction and the whole gamut of so-called ‘diseases of civilization’ which the Eades document in their writings and videos. Surprisingly, it does not mean that you will experience this or that specific disease. You might or might not. Or you may experience varying combinations of confusing symptoms. When you treat one, another pops up, like whack-a-mole.
As I’ve said multiple times on this forum, keto is a process of metabolic normalization. Depending on what’s broke and how severe the damage, the fixing takes time. In some cases, the fixing may never be completed simply because the damage is too extensive and/or severe.
It’s all in one’s perspective. I was quite willing to give up glazed doughnuts for a chance to eat all the bacon I wanted. 
The urge to find substitutes for favourite foods is universal. The effort to find plant-based substitutes for meat products occurs in the vegan world, just as people look for keto-acceptable substitutes here.
Which reminds me—I have to get back to developing my meat-based flour substitute . . . 
For me, that is where the freedom comes in a keto diet. Though a number of people, Dr. Westman and Dr. Noakes in particular, do produce lists of food as an aid to newbies. And so does DietDoctor.com, I believe. But I’ve always found meat-and-a-salad to be an especially easy way to eat keto. Blue cheese dressing, yum!
Thanks for the detailed response. For the sake of debate, I do have to disagree on some things Our ancestors barely lived past youth. I am pretty sure they were not after good looks and longivity. They probably were happy to be alive till the son grew up to become the family head. I used to get irritated when anti meat folks would make similar arguments in their youtube comments but eh, maybe there is some truth and some fallacy on both sides.
In tropical regions I bet they had access to various seasonal carbs majority of the time even before agriculture. That is exactly why human body has learnt to deal with carbs efficiency and tightly regular glucose levels. Is there absolute need for carb all the time? Probably not. Is there an absolute need to avoid it as much as we can and create a stress on the system(strict keto)? I thought answer was Yes now I am starting to think maybe not, based on my own personal experience. Maybe my tropical Asian side of genetics are not happy cutting out all the carbs.
I can also argue for a tribe to survive, it’s better to have all young and strong members, so evolution had to favor killing off the older slower ones therefore their lifestyle and diet was not optimized for longivity but rather for survival. But I WON’T as there is NO evidence and there will not be a concrete evidence unless you can time travel. So I find no interest in using paleolithic argument for everything as a catch all. I think there are places where evolution can be used to learn. But longivity and what diet is optimal for CURRENT societies lifestyle is not one of them. If I remember, you work early shift at WM? ( I read your impressive and detailed food/CGM log and your meals started like 4 /5 am or so, pardon me if I have mixed up). I work regular time and traffic was stressing me out, lucky you no traffic early morning before sunrise. Anyway point is our ansestors lived nothing like today. Evolution is happening constantly. So why keep using that primitive argument to justify things that is otherwise not proven via scientific research as applicable to current society. There are researches on birds that as show measurable evolutionary changes within a couple of generations. Plants too. Maybe the humans that can’t eat too many carbs started getting down regulated during the 1000s of years grains, starches and legumes are being cultivated? We only know what the scientist have presented as a theory of events.
The other thing you mentioned- I have always had a very healthy diet growing up and definitely nowhere close to SAD. So I am not concerned about having ”damaged metabolism”, on the contrary I’am concerned that I might now be damaging it now as evident from increasing A1C after going Keto. Personally, all my tests were fine before keto, doctors were always saying how everything is great and to continue what I am doing. I never had any disease nor allergies that warranted any dietary changes. Started keto on my own as I was trying to be the best I possibly can. After keto, everything is still good except increasing A1C and FBG. I have written several posts why this is a concern.
I am happy for you if you are one of people that have lowered their A1C or reversed any past damages by doing keto. Not sure if you were diabetic and Keto helped reverse it so you are saying it takes years to reverse damage? I don’t have the need to reverse anything (yet!) Just trying to optimize my diet and lifestyle the best I can when I am still ahead, young and healthy. Prevention vs cure. It’s pretty clear there is no answer yet to the concerns posted by some. Until then someone of us “unlucky” “already healthy and active” folks need to modify keto and find something that further improves their health. I am hoping that will be CKD for me. Only time will tell.
That is not actually true. The average age of death was low, because of the prevalence of infections, and no antibiotics to treat them with (remember that penicillin was not discovered until the 1940’s). Infant mortality was high, and it was not uncommon for children to die of diseases that are easily treatable today.
But those of our ancestors who survived their childhood diseases, and also managed to escape serious injury as adults, often lived to quite advanced ages. The Plains tribes of North America, for example, were well-known for the high percentage of their people who lived to be over a hundred—at least, until they adopted the white man’s diet.
So remember, averages can be tricky to deal with. As someone points out in another thread, on average, each human being possesses one ovary and one testicle.
“My ovary gave up long ago!” - Lol @amwassil
As for the longivity of paleolithic people I have seen articles on both sides. Despite allowing for diseases or being a prey, I have seen argument that their life span was nothing close to current even if they survived diseases or being killed. Sorry i incorrectly said “youth” I really meant to say young (relative term. but I was thinking below 45-50 as young!) … @amwassil, my apologies i was editing my comment but you guys got to it and replied before I submitted it. Had to step away for my salad and steak, 
. (Plus a bit of lentils, cycling and doing slowcarb this week)
Why? We are who we are because of who we were. Watch Eades’ video.
I’m cruising along on auto pilot carnivore. I don’t want to stop and get the map out of the glove compartment and see how I got here and where I am heading. (Plus, I can never get it re-folded)
I don’t read the research or watch the vids. Never did. (I realize that the advice and support I get here frequently come from the folks who do.) But there are some topics like our ancestors lifespan and diet and hairstyles that simply create a back and forth debate with no end.
You asked. That’s my why.
Just me speaking from my perspective Michael, so don’t shoot.
hate to say it but it is every darn hormone, insulin check, every blood glucose meter, every metabolic discussion and food that goes into our mouths and more…you can’t even pretend to get real answers with no back and forth debate can ya when we are dealing with more ‘real sciency type info’? Nutrition, body chemistry and food nutrients are put to the ultimate test thru social media ‘experts’ and articles and micro managing of what is ‘perfect for oh so US’ yet?
being on a forum sparks this debate point blank…that is what this venue is here for truly on posting vids and articles and links and more to ‘help others’ thru that info?
but you said one thing I love in that at some point, we do we only thru all we read and fought against and was useless and we drop the BS of it all and JUST DO US and if we are brainy enough to stop listening to tons out there for what that tons of noise is all about, we find us in the mix, and we are actually so tiny in that mix but so powerful it is frigtening but yet again, we deminish ourselves to those experts ya know.
I am in a stage of ‘let it go’ and believe me I never felt better doing just that! But I also learned a ton thru vids and articles and more, learn what sets with you, discard the rest that doesn’t work for you and at that point, I find me kinda like you. I won’t waste time anymore on usless info I don’t deem fit to encompass my research I learned going forward kinda thing.
I don’t know if I said that right HAHA but just an observation on how I am changing also.
no shooting, I get ya on it R! It becomes useless background noise when we hit a certain level of our lives, well for me it happened like that.