Hidden "Dangers" of Keto

[KetogenicJoseph]

lol maybe dogma wasn’t the right word for that

[Brenda]

@KetogenicJoseph
You’re welcome to come down to my gym and watch.
I’m a 53 year old female and keep my carbohydrate at net 5 grams per DAY. I also lift 14 to 16 hours fasted. I lift during extended water fasts too. I am building incredible strength.
Show me the science. Fasting releases HGH. Human Growth Hormone builds muscle. Muscles can be fueled by fat. A person not fully fat adapted may have energy issues. I’ve been ketogenic 3+ years. I assure you, I am fully fat adapted
I realize I am n=1. If you look through the low carb community though, you will find many more like me.
KCKO my friend.

[keehan]

is there an order in which things break down?

There would be an order of sorts, but I don’t think it would be straight forward because all the processes are intertwined and driven by subtle chemical queues depending on what else is floating around at the time.

[Dany]

I would be VERY much interested in knowing “how much carbs” gets you from “high fat / low carb is super healthy” to “high fat / high carbs is a disaster to your health”

I’m NOT asking, “how much carbs to make sure I stay in ketosis”… that’s roughly 20gr/day (give or take person to person)

Assuming I don’t care whether I’m in nutritional ketosis or not.
Assuming I consume moderate proteins: 1gr/kg of LBM
Assuming I consume a very high % of my caloric intake as FAT (70%+)

At when level of carbs does this go from a great diet to a dangerous diet ? 20gr? (“have to” be in ketosis otherwise it’s dangerous) 50gr? 100 gr? 200 gr?

I hear all the time that “high fat / high carb” is bad.
But I asked this same question multiple times, but only got answers that avoid the question.

I’m not asking for myself. I easily keep to below 20gr/day and I count “total” carbs.

I’m asking because my wife and 10 yo son are both eating “mostly” keto. That is, they eat what I cook for myself.
But then they also eat sugary deserts, wheat wraps, fruits, the occasional candy, non-keto ice cream, etc.

I don’t want to be killing them while I’m getting healthy.

Is a high fat diet a “commit 100% and keep carbs under 20gr/day” OR “don’t do it as it will kill you” type deal ?

[Buttonwillow]

This is exactly the right time to ask your pal to show you the science. He still has his medical textbooks, right?

Look up the references in his books that justify his belief about fats. I’ll bet they are way old and/or the studies cited are lame. Be the innocent and ask your friend to help you understand the studies, whether they are clinical or observational, mouse or human, etc.

You will probably be able to poke holes in those studies as wide as a freight train. But do it kindly, as you want him to be open to reading more current science.

[keehan]

Yeah it’s a great question and I suspect the answer is not straight forward. There is evidence that diets like the traditional Asian diet (rice and fish) with high unrefined carbs and near zero fat are quite healthy too… it’s certainly a complex discussion.

Edit: Unrefined carbs come with high soluble/insoluble fibre that vastly slow down absorption and the hit that the liver takes. @richard describes a ketogenic diet here and I would think that point (too many carbs) would be when your insulin response kicks in.

[Chris_W]

At when level of carbs does this go from a great diet to a dangerous diet ? 20gr? (“have to” be in ketosis otherwise it’s dangerous) 50gr? 100 gr? 200 gr?

You get different answers because the subject is complicated and very dependent on the individual and diet composition. It’s tempting to want a simple formula for everyone, but…

That said, if a person is young and still metabolically healthy, they can probably eat up to 200g of carbs a day and it won’t make them sick as long as those carbs are from good sources and not refined and/or sugar. They shouldn’t try to eat extra fat, but they shouldn’t avoid it either if it’s from a natural source like an animal. Avoid processed food in general, make desserts a rare luxury not a daily habit, avoid industrial seed oils. Within those parameters, eat what you like (providing you are not seeking the therapeutic effects of ketosis).

[Chris_W]

traditional Asian diet (rice and fish)

And pork and lard, don’t forget. Nutrition writers love to leave that part out. Traditional Asian diets are nowhere near zero fat.

[keehan]

Oh! Right! I forgot about that…so in that case it’s the unrefined carbs that’s the key. There was something mentioned recently about a Polynesian society that had high carbs/low fat and they were quite healthy and the carb pushers were using that to say high carbs is fine, only they neglected to say that it was mostly unrefined carbs in moderation.

[Chris_W]

in that case it’s the unrefined carbs that’s the key.

That, and I don’t think they ate nearly the same volume of food as we have come to think of as normal in the West.

My theory is that food restriction can cover a multitude of sins. This has been demonstrated in the calorie restricted animal studies for decades. IIRC, the average calorie intake in Okinawa during one population study (no ref, sorry) was around 1900 kcal/day. I’m not saying that we should do that, since keto is obviously better, but it does explain some puzzling questions.

[keehan]

…that was where I was going with my thoughts too… It’s about moderation. When I think about what we’ve come to consider normal eating today (with lots of refined carbs/sugars) compared to just a couple hundred years ago, the differences are stark.

[Dany]

Thank you for answering what may appear to be (or is) a loaded question, but I’m just truly concerned for my loved ones.

Your answer is in line with my own thoughts (and hopes), and you stated it much better than I could have.
But I still find that hard to reconcile with the “beware of the high fat / carbs diet” that is supposed to be the “real” cause of a slew of problems most notably cardio-vascular diseases.

My wife and son are both very fit, trim, and in perfect metabolic health. They both eat a diet that is close to wat you describe they should.

My concerns … At 100gr to 200 gr carbs / day, they would be mostly sugar burners, right? These carbs represent 400-800 cal/day (less then their daily BMR), where does the rest come from? Proteins? (gluconeogenesis). The body would probably start the ketone production process at the same time, but then they consume another 200gr carbs the next day raising insulin again. I don’t think that ever makes them consume fat for energy in any significant way. So the fat gets stored? Lots of fats in the system and spikes of insulin every day, isn’t that 'the recipe to avoid"?

Maybe all my concerns only stem from the deep seeded fears of fat engrained into us for decades.
I have NO problem seeing and understanding how/why consuming lots of fat while in ketosis is a great diet.
It’s consuming that same fat while NOT in ketosis that I still have a problem with… and trying to gauge the dangers of … relative to, say a SAD diet (done cleanly)

And I guess my problem comes from the fact that the “high fat / high carbs is bad” warnings come from top people in the keto world like Dr Nally (and I think Richard mentioned that as well) … but there’s never a clarification given on the “high carbs” part of this equation.

Does it refer only to the +400gr carbs / day a SAD diet?
Or is it any amount of carbs that would put you out of ketosis?

[Chris_W]

Does it refer only to the +400gr carbs / day a SAD diet?
Or is it any amount of carbs that would put you out of ketosis?

Mostly yes to the first question. To the second, a lot depends on your activity level, but to be safe, most people need to be at or under 20 net carbs per day to be in ketosis.

You don’t need to be in ketosis to be healthy, relatively speaking, though. However, if years of bad diet have made you insulin resistant, or you are on the road to full-blown type 2 diabetes, restricting carbs is how you get your illness under control. Under 100g/day is adequate restriction for some who are not too far gone, but if you are obese or have other makers of serious insulin resistance, then you would benefit from a keto approach – actually, anything else will not likely improve your health.

As far as your fear of high fat, yes it’s probably because of years of fat phobia being pushed on us. Think back to the time before the obesity epidemic and the heart disease and diabetes epidemics. What did they eat? Generally there was no thought of restricting fats. When people started to put on weight, though, they knew they should cut back on sweets and starchy foods.

As for high fat on keto, you have to remember that you have to eat something to maintain energy levels. Since carbs are restricted, and protein is moderated, the energy has to come from either the fat on your body or the fat in your diet. Many people are not adapted well enough to use body fat for that and so need extra dietary fat. You don’t want to add lots of fat to a high-carb diet because of the insulin storage issue. If your insulin is high (which it will be after a carby meal) fat will be stored, which is why a donut is an especially fattening thing.

If you are worried about heart disease, remember that it’s high blood glucose and insulin that is what is traumatizing your vessels, not fat.

Hope that helps

[Mglasbrener]

My family is a mixed bag… My oldest daughter is 21 and she’s getting heavy (I can say that because she isn’t on the site). My middle child, almost 18yr old boy isn’t skinny but not fat either. My youngest eats quite horribly and is quite skinny and my wife eats somewhat poorly and is not skinny.

So some of it is genetics IMO. We’re all snowflakes. You have to learn what works for you. It could be that your wife and son are quote metabolically adaptable and switch from burning fat to carbs quite readily. While that may not be the case for you. i.e. You eat carbs, it raises your BS and insulin level and thus raises the set point for your bodies weight making you either eat more carbs or slow metabolically if you restrict calories.

BTW Your wife and son go into ketosis every night. It’s just that the carbs they are consuming don’t seem to raise their basal insulin level so they can revert to burning fat when the BS falls w/o setting off insane hunger alarm bells if you have “metabolic syndrome”.

Lastly, If your son eats poorly he could be raising his insulin resistance and that may not show up as weight gain for another 10-15 years.

[KetogenicJoseph]

This is exactly the right time to ask your pal to show you the science. He still has his medical textbooks, right?

Look up the references in his books that justify his belief about fats. I’ll bet they are way old and/or the studies cited are lame. Be the innocent and ask your friend to help you understand the studies, whether they are clinical or observational, mouse or human, etc.

You will probably be able to poke holes in those studies as wide as a freight train. But do it kindly, as you want him to be open to reading more current science.

Oh yea still has those text books. I will see him in a couple days and we will have another talk about this and ill post the results! I just had an interview yesterday where we did a role play about naysayers of high fat diets and I nailed that part of the interview. The more I educate myself the more knowledgeable I become in this area and love to poke holes in peoples beliefs regarding this lifestyle.

[AllanMisner]

Your blood, muscles and liver store enough glycogen to keep you going hard for 90 - 120 minutes. Train very hard, while in ketosis and fasted.

Over the past three months, I’ve been training heavy, very heavy for one hour three times per week. On my lifting days, I can tolerate (stay in ketosis) with more protein but have to cut it back on non-lifting days. In the three months, I’ve increased my squat by nearly 40% and my deadlift by 33%. I was generally trained, so these gains are substantial. And I did it all while in ketosis.

And like @Brenda, I love the leg press, too!

[Brenda]

And like @Brenda, I love the leg press, too!

Yaaaaaassssssssss.
I lifted an even 700 pounds today.

Looks like ya got 630 on there plus the sled weighs 50. 680. Noice. Feels good huh? I have people ask me if I do a full lift or just toe it.

Full lifts people. In a progression to 700, 10 x’s each.

[jamestorie]

@Dany I’m in the same boat, I desperately want the rest of my family to join me in the keto WOE but I can’t force them. I have also wondered if by eating the meals I prepare they are doing more harm than good. I think the key is to try to get them to at least give up processed sugar and grains. If they are metabolically healthy, they should be able to switch between fat burning and sugar burning much easier than the majority of us on the forum. I hope we all get our keto dreams!

[AllanMisner]

You missed the second stack… It was 1220 at low rep (1 - 3). And I never count the sled.

[Brenda]

Challenge accepted.