Hidden "Dangers" of Keto


(Joseph) #1

What’s up guys? Hope everyone is having a good day so far. Anyway’s I have been doing some reading on the Ketogenic diet. I have a friend who just graduated from medical school and we were talking about the potential long term effects of being on a high fat diet. He suggested that being on a high fat diet, over time, can lead to a build up of plague in your arteries. I don’t know if I necessarily believe that but after further research I discovered that many of the things that I eat on a Keto diet can, in turn, cause plague build up over a period of time. What are y’alls thoughts on this?

Also, I started reading up on the “potential dangers” of a keto diet. One article which seemed pretty biased and not based on evidence said this: .,… if you’re on a strict low carbohydrate diet, you can say goodbye to intense weight training, track intervals, or just about any activity that would be consider “tempo”, “threshold”, or “intervals”. And this is the stuff that adds lean muscle to your body, boosts your metabolism and gets you fit fast – compared to a slow and sluggish slog in your “fat-burning zone”. This is not negotiable by your body. It is simple physiology. When you deplete muscle glycogen, there is a directly proportional increase in muscle fatigue, and also an increase in muscle catabolism (direct metabolism of your body’s own muscle protein, or conversion of that protein into glucose via gluconeogenesis). Many people on a low-carbohydrate diet simply stop exercising, because it can suck so much.

Now. I have heard that people get some really good work outs in when they are on Keto and even when they are fasting. I don’t buy the fact that eating a low carb diet can lead you to not being able to work out. In fact I have seen other physical, tangible evidence of people working out with great results on Keto. What are y’alls take on this dogma?


(Bacon for the Win) #2

of course he did. he just graduated from med school and that’s what he’s been taught. It’s going to be a loooong time before the fallacy of fat causing heart disease and plaque is taught in med school. How else will they be able to push statins? ( a best selling med of all time)

Do some poking around on this site, Richard and others have posted a lot of info debunking this very thing.


(A ham loving ham! - VA6KD) #3

High fat in conjunction with high carb would be more correct IMHO. Of the dietitians and nutritionists I’ve (personally) seen, they can’t seem to get a grasp on the idea of low/zero carb, so therefore high fat automatically comes with high carb. Normal carb for them is 200-300g daily or more. Under 100g is low for them, and some will frankly tell you that you cannot survive on the <20g level of a real Keto diet.


(Siobhan) #4

@Brenda
She can EASILY refute this LOL

Also as for the plaque stuff… nope. Watch Fathead - the info on what actually causes heart disease is VASTLY out of date. It is caused by inflammation AKA sugar. My dad’s chronic heart pain (he had a heart attack decade+ ago) went away 2 weeks into keto as well… less inflammation, less heart trouble.

@richard @carl

Spoken about here:

More here about plaque buildup and cholesterol here:
http://eatingacademy.com/cholesterol-2/heart-disease-begin-tell-us-prevention


(Jennifer) #5

Yep - and the plaque build up is your body trying to repair those places where the inflammation has damaged your veins/arteries. It’s a symptom of inflammation, not a cause.


(Mike Glasbrener) #6

He should read Volek.


(Joseph) #7

I’d have to agree with you on this one. I know scores of people who tell me that eating <20g of carbs a day is not healthy for me. In reality, I get plenty of sustained energy from my diet. I am usually well below the 20g a day goal. I am looking forward to going to my doctor later this month and asking him to order some blood work so that I can get some hard number of where I am at.


(Siobhan) #8

Also missing the fact that plenty of your cells can run on KETONES and the ones that NEED glucose… you can make more! (Gluconeogenisis)
EDIT: More on heart disease… it’s an expansive topic

Check out this thread, specifically this post by @richard

The part about inducing heart disease in rabbits via insulin is worth noting.
And this:

And this:

This too:
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2017/03/31/bjsports-2016-097285


Recovered Study Fails to Support Replacing Saturated Fat
(A ham loving ham! - VA6KD) #9

I’m not a bio-geek, but if I understand the basics of it, we have a dual redundant system at a minimum that kicks in when glucose (carb) is not readily available. The liver will normally produce all the glucose we could need via gluconegenesis from breaking down lipids (triglycerides and some fatty acids) and then if necessary it’ll go to amino acids from protein.


(Joseph) #10

This is true. I do remember reading that the liver possess the ability to produce glucose from non-carbohydrate sources… So if we deplete our glycogen stores our body has the ability to replenish them through the process of gluconegenesis by breaking down lipids from triglycerides and fatty acids. In the process of gluconegensis, is there an order in which things break down? For example from lipids then to amino acids from proteins? Or does the body kind of pick whichever is more abundantly available? I kind of picture it being like “following the chain of command” if that makes any since.


#11

Dogma does not have data for back up…


(Joseph) #12

lol maybe dogma wasn’t the right word for that :slight_smile:


(Brenda Zorn IDM Educator) #13

@KetogenicJoseph
You’re welcome to come down to my gym and watch.
I’m a 53 year old female and keep my carbohydrate at net 5 grams per DAY. I also lift 14 to 16 hours fasted. I lift during extended water fasts too. I am building incredible strength.
Show me the science. Fasting releases HGH. Human Growth Hormone builds muscle. Muscles can be fueled by fat. A person not fully fat adapted may have energy issues. I’ve been ketogenic 3+ years. I assure you, I am fully fat adapted :slight_smile:
I realize I am n=1. If you look through the low carb community though, you will find many more like me.
KCKO my friend.



(A ham loving ham! - VA6KD) #14

There would be an order of sorts, but I don’t think it would be straight forward because all the processes are intertwined and driven by subtle chemical queues depending on what else is floating around at the time.


(Dany Bolduc) #15

I would be VERY much interested in knowing “how much carbs” gets you from “high fat / low carb is super healthy” to “high fat / high carbs is a disaster to your health”

I’m NOT asking, “how much carbs to make sure I stay in ketosis”… that’s roughly 20gr/day (give or take person to person)

Assuming I don’t care whether I’m in nutritional ketosis or not.
Assuming I consume moderate proteins: 1gr/kg of LBM
Assuming I consume a very high % of my caloric intake as FAT (70%+)

At when level of carbs does this go from a great diet to a dangerous diet ? 20gr? (“have to” be in ketosis otherwise it’s dangerous) 50gr? 100 gr? 200 gr?

I hear all the time that “high fat / high carb” is bad.
But I asked this same question multiple times, but only got answers that avoid the question.

I’m not asking for myself. I easily keep to below 20gr/day and I count “total” carbs.

I’m asking because my wife and 10 yo son are both eating “mostly” keto. That is, they eat what I cook for myself.
But then they also eat sugary deserts, wheat wraps, fruits, the occasional candy, non-keto ice cream, etc.

I don’t want to be killing them while I’m getting healthy.

Is a high fat diet a “commit 100% and keep carbs under 20gr/day” OR “don’t do it as it will kill you” type deal ?


(Jane Reed) #16

This is exactly the right time to ask your pal to show you the science. He still has his medical textbooks, right?

Look up the references in his books that justify his belief about fats. I’ll bet they are way old and/or the studies cited are lame. Be the innocent and ask your friend to help you understand the studies, whether they are clinical or observational, mouse or human, etc.

You will probably be able to poke holes in those studies as wide as a freight train. But do it kindly, as you want him to be open to reading more current science.


(A ham loving ham! - VA6KD) #17

Yeah it’s a great question and I suspect the answer is not straight forward. There is evidence that diets like the traditional Asian diet (rice and fish) with high unrefined carbs and near zero fat are quite healthy too… it’s certainly a complex discussion.

Edit: Unrefined carbs come with high soluble/insoluble fibre that vastly slow down absorption and the hit that the liver takes. @richard describes a ketogenic diet here and I would think that point (too many carbs) would be when your insulin response kicks in.


(Crow T. Robot) #18

You get different answers because the subject is complicated and very dependent on the individual and diet composition. It’s tempting to want a simple formula for everyone, but…

That said, if a person is young and still metabolically healthy, they can probably eat up to 200g of carbs a day and it won’t make them sick as long as those carbs are from good sources and not refined and/or sugar. They shouldn’t try to eat extra fat, but they shouldn’t avoid it either if it’s from a natural source like an animal. Avoid processed food in general, make desserts a rare luxury not a daily habit, avoid industrial seed oils. Within those parameters, eat what you like (providing you are not seeking the therapeutic effects of ketosis).


(Crow T. Robot) #19

And pork and lard, don’t forget. Nutrition writers love to leave that part out. Traditional Asian diets are nowhere near zero fat.


(A ham loving ham! - VA6KD) #20

Oh! Right! I forgot about that…so in that case it’s the unrefined carbs that’s the key. There was something mentioned recently about a Polynesian society that had high carbs/low fat and they were quite healthy and the carb pushers were using that to say high carbs is fine, only they neglected to say that it was mostly unrefined carbs in moderation.