Hidden "Dangers" of Keto

(Crow T. Robot) #21

That, and I don’t think they ate nearly the same volume of food as we have come to think of as normal in the West.

My theory is that food restriction can cover a multitude of sins. This has been demonstrated in the calorie restricted animal studies for decades. IIRC, the average calorie intake in Okinawa during one population study (no ref, sorry) was around 1900 kcal/day. I’m not saying that we should do that, since keto is obviously better, but it does explain some puzzling questions.

(A ham loving ham! - VA6KD) #22

…that was where I was going with my thoughts too… It’s about moderation. When I think about what we’ve come to consider normal eating today (with lots of refined carbs/sugars) compared to just a couple hundred years ago, the differences are stark.

(Dany Bolduc) #23

Thank you for answering what may appear to be (or is) a loaded question, but I’m just truly concerned for my loved ones.

Your answer is in line with my own thoughts (and hopes), and you stated it much better than I could have.
But I still find that hard to reconcile with the “beware of the high fat / carbs diet” that is supposed to be the “real” cause of a slew of problems most notably cardio-vascular diseases.

My wife and son are both very fit, trim, and in perfect metabolic health. They both eat a diet that is close to wat you describe they should.

My concerns … At 100gr to 200 gr carbs / day, they would be mostly sugar burners, right? These carbs represent 400-800 cal/day (less then their daily BMR), where does the rest come from? Proteins? (gluconeogenesis). The body would probably start the ketone production process at the same time, but then they consume another 200gr carbs the next day raising insulin again. I don’t think that ever makes them consume fat for energy in any significant way. So the fat gets stored? Lots of fats in the system and spikes of insulin every day, isn’t that 'the recipe to avoid"?

Maybe all my concerns only stem from the deep seeded fears of fat engrained into us for decades.
I have NO problem seeing and understanding how/why consuming lots of fat while in ketosis is a great diet.
It’s consuming that same fat while NOT in ketosis that I still have a problem with… and trying to gauge the dangers of … relative to, say a SAD diet (done cleanly)

And I guess my problem comes from the fact that the “high fat / high carbs is bad” warnings come from top people in the keto world like Dr Nally (and I think Richard mentioned that as well) … but there’s never a clarification given on the “high carbs” part of this equation.

Does it refer only to the +400gr carbs / day a SAD diet?
Or is it any amount of carbs that would put you out of ketosis?

(Crow T. Robot) #24

Mostly yes to the first question. To the second, a lot depends on your activity level, but to be safe, most people need to be at or under 20 net carbs per day to be in ketosis.

You don’t need to be in ketosis to be healthy, relatively speaking, though. However, if years of bad diet have made you insulin resistant, or you are on the road to full-blown type 2 diabetes, restricting carbs is how you get your illness under control. Under 100g/day is adequate restriction for some who are not too far gone, but if you are obese or have other makers of serious insulin resistance, then you would benefit from a keto approach – actually, anything else will not likely improve your health.

As far as your fear of high fat, yes it’s probably because of years of fat phobia being pushed on us. Think back to the time before the obesity epidemic and the heart disease and diabetes epidemics. What did they eat? Generally there was no thought of restricting fats. When people started to put on weight, though, they knew they should cut back on sweets and starchy foods.

As for high fat on keto, you have to remember that you have to eat something to maintain energy levels. Since carbs are restricted, and protein is moderated, the energy has to come from either the fat on your body or the fat in your diet. Many people are not adapted well enough to use body fat for that and so need extra dietary fat. You don’t want to add lots of fat to a high-carb diet because of the insulin storage issue. If your insulin is high (which it will be after a carby meal) fat will be stored, which is why a donut is an especially fattening thing.

If you are worried about heart disease, remember that it’s high blood glucose and insulin that is what is traumatizing your vessels, not fat.

Hope that helps

(Mike Glasbrener) #25

My family is a mixed bag… My oldest daughter is 21 and she’s getting heavy (I can say that because she isn’t on the site). My middle child, almost 18yr old boy isn’t skinny but not fat either. My youngest eats quite horribly and is quite skinny and my wife eats somewhat poorly and is not skinny.

So some of it is genetics IMO. We’re all snowflakes. You have to learn what works for you. It could be that your wife and son are quote metabolically adaptable and switch from burning fat to carbs quite readily. While that may not be the case for you. i.e. You eat carbs, it raises your BS and insulin level and thus raises the set point for your bodies weight making you either eat more carbs or slow metabolically if you restrict calories.

BTW Your wife and son go into ketosis every night. It’s just that the carbs they are consuming don’t seem to raise their basal insulin level so they can revert to burning fat when the BS falls w/o setting off insane hunger alarm bells if you have “metabolic syndrome”.

Lastly, If your son eats poorly he could be raising his insulin resistance and that may not show up as weight gain for another 10-15 years.

(Joseph) #26

Oh yea still has those text books. I will see him in a couple days and we will have another talk about this and ill post the results! I just had an interview yesterday where we did a role play about naysayers of high fat diets and I nailed that part of the interview. The more I educate myself the more knowledgeable I become in this area and love to poke holes in peoples beliefs regarding this lifestyle.

(Allan Misner) #27

Your blood, muscles and liver store enough glycogen to keep you going hard for 90 - 120 minutes. Train very hard, while in ketosis and fasted.

Over the past three months, I’ve been training heavy, very heavy for one hour three times per week. On my lifting days, I can tolerate (stay in ketosis) with more protein but have to cut it back on non-lifting days. In the three months, I’ve increased my squat by nearly 40% and my deadlift by 33%. I was generally trained, so these gains are substantial. And I did it all while in ketosis.

And like @Brenda, I love the leg press, too!

(Brenda Zorn IDM Educator) #28

I lifted an even 700 pounds today.

Looks like ya got 630 on there plus the sled weighs 50. 680. Noice. Feels good huh? I have people ask me if I do a full lift or just toe it.

Full lifts people. In a progression to 700, 10 x’s each.

(James storie) #29

@Dany I’m in the same boat, I desperately want the rest of my family to join me in the keto WOE but I can’t force them. I have also wondered if by eating the meals I prepare they are doing more harm than good. I think the key is to try to get them to at least give up processed sugar and grains. If they are metabolically healthy, they should be able to switch between fat burning and sugar burning much easier than the majority of us on the forum. I hope we all get our keto dreams!

(Allan Misner) #30

You missed the second stack… It was 1220 at low rep (1 - 3). And I never count the sled.

(Brenda Zorn IDM Educator) #31

Challenge accepted.

(Desiree) #32

Sooooo I should feel pretty good I leg press 750 myself😁

(Louise ) #33

@siobhan you’ll need to update this thread with a link to your article now!

(Siobhan) #34


Here is a link to a micro view of the development of atherosclerosis and the mechanisms behind it. It is not normal LDL but damaged LDL that appears to contribute. Please read - may help explain to people how even if keto does raise LDL for some, it might not necessarily be a cause for concern.


Looking forward to part 2!

(Jeffrey Long) #36

I was diagnosed with plaque (Peyronie’s Disease). Will a keto or carnivore diet help with the plaque issue or make no difference?

(Not a Chef) #38

This is nonsense.

(Bob Johnson) #39

Or… you can ignore such terms… don’t try to meet someone else’s expectations of a “perfect” body and just shoot for being healthier.

If a person wants to be athletic, have better endurance, then low/no carb is the way to go.

Question everything.
Keto Vitae!

(Brian) #40

Shawn Baker would seem to agree.

There is so much noise out there regarding what will eventually clog your arteries and cause slow, painful death that you can chase conflicting ideas down rabbit holes until you’re 150 years old and you’ll never run out of rabbit holes, nor will you find the holy grail of the unified theory of physical health for humans.

Do what works for you. Get checked out once in a while with blood work and maybe even a few CAC scans (or similar) over your lifetime. If there are problems, deal with them. If there are none, stop worrying about stuff that’s not happening.

(Just my opinion.)

(charlie3) #41

I started keto and exercise about 9 months ago. I’m new to keto but was a dedicated hobby lifter 25 years ago. So far my body weight is down 25-30 pounds to my high school waist line, and blood pressure is down 30 points to below 120 most of the time. My frustration is I’m not getting stronger or bigger or progress is super slow and I’m not allowing for that. There are always confounders. I have a list. There is no way I can say 20 net carbs is the culprit but it’s not ruled out. Recently I’m allowing net carbs to go up to 50-60 to see if that makes any difference. I’ve reduced weekly lifting volume 30% to observe whether strength maintains, increases, or declines. May be I’m not recovering sufficiently. I’m trying a creatine suppliment. If you buy it right the cost is negligable. The stuff might even benefit sedentary people. I am NOT sedentary. Daily calories consumed are 1500 for BMR and another 800 via walking, cardio, and weight training. Most of the activity calories is the walking. Weight training calories are almost trivial.

My goals are to be optimally healthy and fit through diet and exercise AND look the part. (Body fat is currently 11-12%, may be that is too low for gains in the gym. May be I’m not eating enough calories for muscle gains because I’m so attached to being lean.)

I think meal frequency is a huge variable for health. Instead of 3 meals and 3 snacks a day I eat 2 meals 6 days a week, nothing one day a week and no snacks ever. That reduces meal frequency per week from 35 to 12. I feel a bit hungry in the morning on the 2 meal days and don’t feel any hunger on the no eating day. Go figure.

Somebody here wrote that the liver will produce enough glucose to allow muscles to maintain muscle glycogen. Where is some science for that please? If that’s reliably true may be I’ll go back to 20 net carbs.