Heavy training and keto

#1

I have a big race coming up next month - 184 mile run. I have been keto for 8 months and have experienced great results. For the first months of keto, I really focused on long slow distance, and all was well (once I was fat adapted). BUT, now that I am back to a heavy training load - 120 to 175 miles per week for the past couple of months - I am simply not recovering like I did pre-keto. For the first time in my running career it is taking me days to recover from a long run.

I know it is possible to do high mileage on a HFLC diet, but very few high mileage athletes are willing to disclose what the “low carb” number means for them. I know everyone is different, but I can’t seem to figure out just how many carbs to add to help in my recovery while still staying fat adapted - which has been life changing. Or maybe I’m missing the boat altogether and adding more carbs in isn’t the answer.

Thoughts/Questions

  1. I was lean before keto, and now I am very lean, so maybe I just can’t access enough body fat quickly enough for the amount I’m running.
  2. If the above is true, should I add more fat rather than carbs?
  3. Has anyone had success with high mileage recovery by upping your carbs but not messed up your fat adaptation? If so, how many carbs did you add?

Thanks for any advice. I know this is n=1, but I enjoy the process of figuring this stuff out! :smile:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #2

Not having personal experience, I can only offer what I have learned from others. Dr. Phinney says that even a lean person has something like 50,000 (kilo)calories stored, as opposed to a very small amount of glucose, so if you are fat-adapted, it sounds as though you should be fine. If you want to go fat-heavy before the race, I can’t see how it would hurt, but a real racer should probably answer that question. I know that the first keto athlete to win the Western States endurance run (I think it was the other guy, not Zach Bitter; Bitter was the following year, I believe) took gels with him, just in case, so if you wanted to do that, I’m sure it would be fine. It’s not as though you wouldn’t burn off the glucose, after all!

Ultra Endurance Athlete Starting Out
(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #3

Forgot to add: Dr. Phinney recommends a cup of bone broth about half an hour before the race, to make sure your blood volume is up and you have enough sodium.

(Ken) #4

Classic starvation effects, indicating a metabolic slowdown. You’ve got three choices. One, reduce your training. Two, add carbs in before and after training. Three, go to periodic glycogen recompensation, such as on the Weekends.

If it were me, I’d have a major Carb weekend, then start having simple carbs like dextrose before and after training.

(Chris) #5

Yeah, it’s approximately 3500 calories per pound of actual fat on the body. So if you’re 200lbs and 12.5% BF, you’d have a total fat mass of 25lbs. This would net the person 87,500 calories, or so, of energy.

#6

Thank you for the reply, Paul! I really appreciate it.

#7

Great info, Ken. Yes, I think that is exactly what is happening. I know @richard has discussed at length the “accessibility” to stored body fat in lean athletes, but I wasn’t sure if that was my problem. I’ve been hesitant to try adding too many carbs because I didn’t want to “undo” the wonderful effects of keto, but I can’t continue with this much residual soreness.

Thanks again for your thoughtful comments!

#8

Thanks, Chris! I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I definitely still have plenty of body fat on my butt :slight_smile: but have been confused by how much I can access realistically per hour during a long run.

(Erin Macfarland ) #9

@Carikate remember that you can only access a small amount of energy daily from each pound of body fat. You were lean before Keto now you say you’re very lean, do you know your body fat %? I’m guessing based on the volume of training you’re doing it’s quite low, probably sub 15% which is dangerous for women. If you’re familiar with my story (I have been part of this group since it was a FB page and have been on the Keto woman podcast) you’ll know I struggled with a restrictive eating disorder and over exercising a couple of years ago after having been on Keto for a while. I got to 6% body fat at my lowest point. I didn’t understand at the time that being that lean leads to many health problems in women. My heart could have simply stopped because of my insufficient body fat stores. Women, even athletes, should not drop below 15%. I am curious to know if you have amenorrhea (lack of a period). This would be a good indication that you are too lean. If you are indeed at a very low body fat % and theoretically still have 50,000 calories of stored energy, this does NOT mean you have access to that as energy, nor is that 50,000 calories an infinite pool from which your body can draw energy during an endurance event. As I mentioned, we can only access a small amount of energy from stored body fat every day, @richard has referenced that number to be somewhere around 35 kcal per pound. So if you only have ten pounds of body fat (which is pretty low) you can only use about 350 calories of that per day. I’m simplifying things here just to express that our body fat is not something we can rely on as a primary fuel source when we are very lean. Someone who has larger quantities of body fat and is starting Keto can easily fuel their activities from stored energy over the course of a day. But a lean individual who is highly active cannot. Particularly as women, we need a minimum amount of “essential” body fat just to keep our bodies and hormones functioning properly. This essential fat is not something that should be considered a fuel source. It’s like our retirement savings- it needs to stay there to protect us, it’s not something we can use for everyday expenses. I am not trying to be critical of you in any way, but I want to share what I have been through in hopes that you see your body might be in a state that could lead to serious health issues. I too am an endurance athlete, though I am not even close to logging the kind of mileage you are. I am also a certified personal trainer and so I am highly active and after having had to gain weight a couple of years ago to get myself out of danger having been at such a low body fat % I have since leaned out a bit and am very mindful of making sure I am fueling my body properly. I would suggest that you lower your mileage if possible and even reassess why you want to participate in such long distance races. I completely understand how fulfilling it is to have challenging goals and the rewarding experience of training for them. But this may come at a high cost. The amount of energy your body needs to support that much training is very high. For fat adapted athletes nut butters are an ideal source of energy as they are usually tolerated well (as long as you don’t have an allergy obviously), and they come in a nice package of plenty of fat but also a bit of protein and carbs. Smoothies made with full fat coconut milk and some raspberries or strawberries are easy to digest as well and you can easily handle the amount of carbs in those fruits. You have to figure out how to fuel yourself sufficiently during training and in races so you are providing enough energy to your body because you cannot rely on your fat stores. I know the people that have responded to your post are only sharing their understanding of the potential for lean individuals to have large amounts of stored energy, but again this doesn’t mean you have access to that, especially as a woman. You need a much higher amount of body fat to maintain your health than a man does. I know this is a super long response but I saw myself as I was a couple of years ago in your situation and I hope you will be open to my suggestions as they are out of genuine concern. I try and share my story as much as I can so hopefully others can avoid putting their health at risk.

#10

Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply. Yes, I have read many of your posts because you always provide very good, thorough information for lean members of the forum. :smile:

My body fat is approximately 17% (can dip a bit lower if I’m not careful, but I make a concerted effort to keep it up because of the exact issues you mention. I am not amenorrheic, or suffering from any (obvious) hormonal imbalances - especially since having cut out sugar/gluten. I chose keto originally to address inflammation and stomach issues, having seen good results for Zach Bitter and Timothy Olsen. Thankfully, those issues cleared up immediately (within 3 weeks) upon going keto.

Which leads me to now. After 8 months keto, I’m trying to find the balance of keeping inflammatory symptoms at bay while getting enough fuel (either carbs or fat) to adequately fuel my body for heavy training.

I am a professional endurance athlete, hence the high volume. (I “retired” last year, but after going keto, decided to continue for a few more years since I was able to solve the inflammatory problems). I have maintained this level of training since 2006 without any of the residual fatigue I have started feeling on keto. I do consume nut butters, avocado, etc., during training, but was wondering if I might need to up my carbs for this training load.

My quandry is: How do I maintain the anti-inflammatory/gut health benefits of keto while maintaining my ability to healthily train at a high level. I know other ultra endurance athletes do it, but they are a bit cagey about how many carbs they are actually consuming.

Thank you again for your response :smile:

(Ken) #11

You are overly concerned with the possibility of reversing the positive effects of a lipolytic lifestyle. In order to reverse the benefits, in the macro nutrient context, you’d have to go totally back to a chronic Carb based pattern, eat enough to recompensate glycogen, and then continue a pattern that causes chronic overcompensation. That would lead to a rise in leptin resistance, then to hyperinsulinemia and increases in insulin resistance because of the overeating. Not to mention the conversion to triglycerides and subsequent fat storage. It’s a pretty tough thing to do if you consider fat to be the basis of your nutrition. Carb intake becomes mainly for metabolic purposes, intermittant and periodic rather than chronic, with virtually no chance of reaching glycogen overcompensation.

For you, you could easily go several weeks of eating carbs, resume a lipolytic pattern afterwards, and experience no significant negative readaptations. I’m not suggesting this, but there’s no need to stress about food on your next vacation.

Believe me, many of those athletes eat carbs, but for metabolic purposes. They don’t like to admit it because the nut jobs come out of the woodwork to critique them. If and when you decide to eat carbs periodically, you’ll have to experiment to see which ones don’t cause discomfort. For example, potatoes are fine for me, but grains cause massive bloating when eaten in large amounts. Fruit is usually good, as are simple sugars, even ice cream.

#12

Thanks so much! That answers my question. I couldn’t find anything that specifically addressed the issue, and I hated to undo the anti-inflammatory benefits while still being able to train. These carbs are a tricky thing to get right. :blush:

C

#13

Sorry, Ken, that last reply was to you. I was trying to reply on my phone and clearly hit the wrong button.

Thanks again.

(shane ) #14

Check out the Joe Rogan and Zach Bitter podcast. He talks about how he prepares for long ultra marathons as a ketogenic athlete. Carbs are part of his strategy.

#15

Will do! Thank you.

(Erin Macfarland ) #16

I understand the challenges associated with being a professional endurance athlete, and I’m glad to know you’re not experiencing any hormonal imbalances. I would try making up some high fat smoothies using coconut, avocado, berries, etc, those are a great strategy for cramming in fat and lots of calories in an easily digestible form. It’s a tough situation you’re in because you have a lot of factors to address. Keep up posted on your progress!

#17

Thank you, Erin! And thanks for taking the time to help me dial this in.

(Erin Macfarland ) #18

Absolutely! Good luck to you!

(Adam Foard) #19

I’m not an ultramarathoner or pro endurance athlete either so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

For fats that are less than 12 carbons (short and medium chain triglycerides) these are relatively water soluble once emulsified by bile. S/MCTs don’t have to be packaged into chylomicrons. They go straight to the liver via the hapatic portal vein.

Longer chain triglycerides have to get packed into a chylomicron, and take a 16-24 hour trip through the lymphatic system and get taken up as energy by various tissues along the way.

Kinda’ like Dave Feldman’s cholesterol test protocol I would think loading fats would be possible.

Ideas:

  • Shortly before/during long training sessions and races get several hundred calories of S/MCTs
  • 2-3 days before races, pre-load your blood/lymph with lots of LCTs
  • Basically eat MORE fat

I reason this because you’re lean and getting leaner. This is because you’re not getting enough exogenous fats to fuel on.

Also there is a limit to how much energy can be released from adipose tissue at once even if there is a lot of energy there. This goes into Dave Feldman’s research on lean hyper responders. Your serum triglycerides & cholesterol has to act as an energy reserve the same as glycogen would.

Basically you may need to “fat load” the same way other athletes “carb load”. That way there is enough energy stored in your serum to sustain you.

#20

That is really interesting, Adam. Thanks so much for taking the time to explain. I will experiment with it and see how it goes. I’d never thought of “fat loading” but based on your explanation, it makes perfect sense.

I love how many smart people there are in this forum!