Heart Disease dramatically decreased during/after WWI and WWII due to "meat shortage" and diet change to grains


(Ellenor Bjornsdottir (spare me thy resistant starch spiel)) #61

You implied that the Earth’s age was less than three million years. It’s relevant to the discussion.

(Bunny) #62

He is giving a hypothetical number that does not contrast with reality and I was simply correcting an error. No need to comment further.

(Polly) #63

I thought that “modern” humans had been around for something in the region of 200,000 to 250,000 years but that the fossil records show evidence that the predecessors of modern man appeared 66 million years ago.

I have also seen that the earth itself is reckoned to be 4.5 billion years old.

Why do you think the earth is less than 3 million years old @atomicspacebunny?

(Pete Stec) #64

In the documentary Forks Over Knives, great pains have gone into explaining the WW2 details (that you mention) regarding meat eating and plant-based food. In a nutshell, heart disease was the same in Norway as everywhere else in Europe just before the Nazi occupation. When the Nazis invaded and took all their livestock, the general population had to “settle” for plant based whole foods and heart disease dropped like a rock to near zero levels within months (Dr. Esselstyn explains all the details). When the Nazis got kicked out a few short years later, heart disease in Norway returned to “normal” levels on par with the rest of Europe (this is no secret and there are numerous, very public studies to prove this). I used to be Keto, then Paleo, and now I just use my logic and eat what our bodies were meant to eat! Blessings all!

(Phillip Brandvold) #65

Remember when these forums used to provide information for people that were on topic? Thanks to all who actually answered or attempted to answer/discuss my original topic.

To those of you hijacking the thread to take shots at each other’s paradigms of research/scientific theory/etc, can you take it somewhere else? Start a thread to discuss how you dislike each other, it’s unhelpful here.

(Polly) #66


I think people are continuing to discuss the issues raised in the subject of your original title but are clarifying the outlying questions in an effort to drill down on the relevant factors.

You cannot dictate how a conversation flows after you have started it off simply because you started it.

(Scott) #67

I have a hard time getting my head wrapped around a snippet in time of about 50 years. We start with a five year war followed by 20 years that included a pandemic and a depression. That is followed by another five year war. The next twenty five years followed with a similar diet. Then a dramatic shift to processed foods that increasingly became a low fat / high carb. I guess I question the metrics of how heart disease was calculated during that time period and how that may have changed over 50 years. There are so many confounders like calorie restriction, reduction of sugars of all types. Just think of how many people died as a result of war and disease, that alone would reduce heart related diseases. I also wonder how many cardiologists there were in the WW1 WW2 era. I am skeptical that for all the reasons I have listed that a study can accurately state as fact that only the reduction in meat reduced heart disease.

(GINA ) #68

Gary Taubes has some good insight on this is Good Calories Bad Calories when he is talking about Ancel Keyes and the Seven Countries Study. It has been awhile and I don’t remember all the details, but Taubes believes it had more to do with lack of sugar, calorie restriction, and dying of other things than decreased meat consumption.

The book is worth a read, for sure.

(Ellenor Bjornsdottir (spare me thy resistant starch spiel)) #69

It’s like you’re in a religion. Keto people are, paleos are, and you are too.

(Ellenor Bjornsdottir (spare me thy resistant starch spiel)) #70

I’m done with this thread. Completely done. I am no longer responding.

(Bunny) #71

Processed sugar and no exercise to burn it up then you have problems, more fat accumulates, skeletal muscle goes dormant and you get diabetes?

Whole Foods like you would see in the original Okinawan diet are not the same as most would try to describe all starchy carbohydrates being bad problem is you can’t mix a refined simple carbohydrate with a complex carbohydrate (…and expect to be healthy) and that’s exactly what industrialized people do, then you throw some extracted polyunsaturated fats (a processed food) on top of that?

During the Wars Poland and England had decreased mortality with increased longevity, decreased diabetes etc. and the primary source of nutrition was most likely unprocessed foods; even processed but eating less of it? In Poland they were eating lots of potato’s and probably getting pretty good doses of resistant starch to feed bacteria that produces butyrate without much refined sugar? Freshly made breads baked within 48 hours of being milled that contained living germ?

Not eating as often was probably more responsible for better health and longevity then sources of nutrition is my better guess!

Me myself I can dam near eat anything I want and still remain keto because I don’t eat as often.

Let me clarify this even more, remaining keto means you are metabolically fit and if you are metabolically fit, you go into ketosis naturally when you sleep, no need to eat excessive proteins and fats or limit complex carbohydrate intake.

(Scott) #72

Already read this one, great book. I have read so many books on keto/ carnivore I have trouble remembering each detail. Thanks for reminding me.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #73

Geologic observation, isotopic analyses of elements and understanding radioactive decay. There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

@pmbrandvold As @Polly1 pointed out, you may start a discussion and point it in any direction you wish. But once set in motion it often evolves differently. Rather than complain about that, you could try to nudge it back towards your desired direction with occasional relevant posts and hope for the best.

(Bunny) #74

Not going to get into all that with you, the title of the Forum is “Ketogenic Forums” not geology 101 my dear.

Don’t mistaken hypotheticals as being a definition of the real world.

(Scott) #75

I am curious @atomicspacebunny are you Vegan or Vegetarian? Just curious because my radar is saying you might be, and that okay.

This just seems like a strange statement to me. To reverse the statement “you go out of ketosis naturally when you wake with reduced proteins and fats but don’t limit complex carbohydrates”

I tend to not be an extremist that thinks all beings on the planet must eat <20g of carbs or they get kicked out of the keto club but I think your statement that I tormented into the way my brain hears it doesn’t in any way reflect a keto lifestyle. It can fall into LCHF I suppose but then we will need to nail down the exact carb load that each falls into and that is not possible.

(Bunny) #76

I’m not a vegetarian, vegan or otherwise I examine the science from an anthropology and forensic like (not just criminal as the term suggests) perspective, I carry no biases against any way of dieting and occasionally point out flaws in the logic of any frame work.

Some day I will write a book that will leave no stone unturned.


Interesting question, however I tend not to trust/believe major government studies simply because of current dietary recommendations and the results they have given us in the population. Here is my truth, since I began eating a keto diet 3 years ago, my blood results are the best they’ve ever been, I have no brain fog, I have more energy, I no longer need anti-depressant medication, and I enjoy my life more. I trust how I feel.

(Vic) #78

(Ron) #79

Excellent link! Georgia breaks down misguided science extremely well. She addresses proteins at minute 39. Very informative. Thank You for posting this. :+1:

(Vic) #80

Thank You, I started this Keto beginning July because I desperately needed to lose weight, I had seen some people in my industry that had been using it with some great success but a few that also were doing better with ailments like Diabetes and Copd,

Since then I keep going down these informational rabbit holes and it has become much more then losing weight Its about my overall health