Mark, Mark, Mark! It’s just human nature that people on a forum dedicated to a low-carbohydrate way of eating would be trying to figure out how to stretch “under 20 g of carbohydrate a day” to mean “all the carbohydrate we can eat”! Logic and physiology have nothing to do with it . . . 
'Good' Carbs?
PaulL
(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing)
#64
not at you …but you know…
David_Stilley
(Full Metal KETO AF)
#66
@atomicspacebunny I watched Cray Ray Diet, I just don’t get how this is better than eating a normal LCHF ketogenic diet. Yes it seems like eating only starch like a potato will put you into some kind of potatosis, burning fat and probably getting some autophagy to supply protein but it sounds like a torturous way to loose weight, basically starvation and caloric restriction from the pure boredom that comes from eating only potatoes. It doesn’t sound like he has arrived at a healthy place at all. If weight loss is your only goal and real metabolic health isn’t a concern then a LFHC diet can work. He claims .9 lb weight loss per day. That is too fast for loosing 100 lbs I would think, unless you want to be a person swimming in a bag of skin. I think IF and KETO are probably more effective for arriving at a healthy metabolism and weight.
He says he eats what he wants now but that’s deceptive in that it’s a loaded statement. He eats what he wants but he doesn’t eat the way he used to which means he’s unlearned what he previously thought was good. I can make that same statement. I eat whatever I want, it just happens that is ketogenic low carb foods. I want them because I feel better eating them. He’s eating low fat vegan food with the occasional corned beef sandwich or pizza for social reasons mostly to go out with his son. So you can loose weight eating anything in my opinion if you calorie restrict but I question how healthy that is in the long run. It’s just easier to do if all you allow yourself to eat are boiled or baked potatoes but who wants to live that way? I sure don’t and I don’t think that Penn Jillette’s story had anything to do with the resistant starch theory, he was just living on starchy carbs for four months. Too austere for me. I am not a monk. 
ZuleikaD
#67
This isn’t actually a negative effect for a lot of people. Many people (probably even most) do perfectly well maintaining their health and weight goals at around 100g carbs/day. It’s really only people with specific medical conditions that need to stay extremely low carb and aim to be in permanent ketosis. I know there are a lot of people on these forums that fit that description, so 100g seems outrageous for them.
Personally, I think the “keto 4-evah” attitude is a bit extreme for the average person and wanting to find ways to increase variety is a perfectly fine thing to do if you can. If you know you have a medical condition that precludes this, then you’ll stay low enough to stay in ketosis. If not, it’s worth experimenting with if you want to.
David_Stilley
(Full Metal KETO AF)
#68
I agree but this is a ketogenic forum and KETO is different from a low carb diet which was the point I was trying to make. I have had a few high carb days in the last year but it was a choice for a day, not trying to transition towards my old way of eating. And you are right, there are the minority who are healthier than I am and might function fine on low carb but I don’t think I am one of them, after a year I am still clinging to that root on the edge of a cliff and could quickly fall into real metabolic derangement because of medications I have to take for life that mess with my BG levels no matter how I eat. But a fasting BG of 112 is much better than 203 where I started. It’s a tooth and nail battle for me and many others. So being in ketosis is of primary concern for many of us, myself included. I don’t know if I will ever be able to diversify my macros to accommodate levels like 100 carbs and remain healthy too. If you can well that’s good for you to have that option I guess.
amwassil
(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.)
#69
But don't call it keto
In comparison, yes, 100 grams of carbs per day is better than 300-500 grams. And I also agree that lots of people will be far healthier at 100 grams per day. So let’s just call it what it is: Lower Carb.
Plenty of us are eating keto to gain the health benefits that derive from eating nutritional keto, not to cure or alleviate any particular medical condition. Make no mistake, being in ketosis is healthier overall than being simply lower carb. There are multiple health benefits to having your insides awash in ketones rather than not. So let’s be honest about it and not confuse the issue. Lower carb is not keto. Although it’s better than higher carb it does not gain the benefits of ketosis.
Are the Keto recipes really keto?
Dr. Benjamin Bikman - ‘Insulin vs. Ketones - The Battle for Brown Fat’
atomicspacebunny
(Bunny)
#70
It is just a method like any other on the forum, that’s all it is and it is still a ketogenic diet and fasting, there are thousands of metabolic pathways to consider, the science of ketosis (oxidized fat) is just the main backbone of all of it!
It all boils down to how metabolically fit you are, if your body cannot oxidize carbohydrates/sugars faster (portion size and that goes for protein and fat too?) than you are eating them; then you need to do the ketogenic diet and not eat so many carbohydrates/sugars to repair the damage?
Humans now days eat way too many refined carbohydrates (high octane fuel), keep in mind potatoes are not a refined carbohydrate (until you add things to it, your not taking from it) ! Big differences between a refined junk food (a simple carbohydrate) and a whole food (a complex carbohydrate)!
Another way to look at it is; are you oxidizing faster (skeletal muscle volume) than the amount of food your eating i.e. not storing it as fat?
If not?
Then you need to reverse the process and oxidize the food being stored as fat that’s already in storage i.e. the ketogenic diet!
amwassil
(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.)
#71
The big difference is a couple hours.
Q66
(KetoQ)
#72
I try to be strategic with my carbs.
Huge salads. Benefit is an emphasis on complex carbs, high fiber, lots of micro nutrients and a diversity of flavors. I put everything in my salads. Last nights was lettuce, kale, red cabbage, collard greens, egg, tomato, cucumbers, carrots, onions, avocado, olives, jalapenos, guardinera and mushrooms with a cilantro dressing. It filled an entire plate. That in itself was very filling.
Another way I like to eat carbs is adding a banana and kale to a protein shake. The banana thickens and sweetens it up a bit and the kale is a nice complement to the chocolate. I know lots of peeps here aren’t into the shakes, but I lift a lot and I’m experiencing nice gains with the shakes and creatine.
I’ve also begun eating braunschweiger and liverwurst, as these are very nutrient dense foods. They are typically good on rye bread, but I substitute rolling the sausage spread with mustard and red onions in a large collard green leaf, and then rolling that into a large red cabbage leaf. So I swap out collard greens and cabbage for bread.
If you enjoy cottage cheese, it has 12g protein and 5g carbs in 1/2 cup. I like to cut up a peach and mix it into the cc. Its sort of a low carb dessert and I personally find it very filling.
David_Stilley
(Full Metal KETO AF)
#73
How does adding salt, butter, sour cream, cheese or bacon to a potato turn it into refined carbohydrates? I would rather eat those without the potato anyway! The point is that potato is completely unnecessary. The are virtually void of nutrition. A filler.
Anyway both options result in weight loss so I don’t understand why someone would choose to just eat potatoes when just eating a diverse ketogenic diet will take you to a better place health wise without starving yourself.
amwassil
(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.)
#74
I think the dichotomy of ‘refined’ carbs vs ‘complex’ carbs is mistaken. Humans evolved for 2+ million years to thrive in nutritional ketosis. It has only been in the last few thousand years that we have had access to less than 90+% indigestible cellulose carbs. And that due to the domestication and selective breeding of specific plants. It has been a nutritional disaster.
There is a video making the rounds of this forum that documents quite conclusively that the transition from hunter/gatherer to farmer resulted in decreased health overall and specific deficiency diseases for the farmers. It specifically and in some detail documents the evidence from ancient Egypt of widespread obesity, diabetes and cardio vascular disease from eating a diet high in so-called ‘complex’ carbs, derived primarily from wheat.
atomicspacebunny
(Bunny)
#75
Because your mixing starchy sugar (a non-resistant starch) with fat except for the salt!
Never mix high starchy sugars or a refined or natural sugar itself with fat if your trying to do a ketogenic diet!
But then again if your metabolically fit enough to burn it as soon as you eat it then it really does not matter as long as you adhere to portion size in contrast to your skeletal muscle volume?
When people go back to the way they were eating before they start exceeding their individual metabolic limitations, you go one carb over and that sugar/carbohydrate starts turning into lipid droplets or body adipose tissue rather than the metabolism scheduling it for oxidation!
David_Stilley
(Full Metal KETO AF)
#76
I would like to see this video Michael, do you have a link or remember who made it or the title? Thanks.
MarkGossage
(bulkbiker)
#77
Rubbish… you have added fat to the carb to make it a fat and carb combination.
it does not somehow magically turn it into a “refined” carb.
amwassil
(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.)
#78
When I get home from work I’ll find it and post it here. Unless someone else does so first. Calling @PaulL I think you were the original linker.
atomicspacebunny
(Bunny)
#79
Good point! When your taking the accompanying nutrients out of sugar you are refining it into pure sugar, those accompanying micro-nutrients are what help the human body process that sugar correctly!
Also when you eat fat with lots of sugar/starch that is the worst thing you can do! (future CHD and CVD with time) …in other words I would not eat like that too often! Irregardless of the definitions of a “refined” carbohydrate
Refining corn starch by adding enzymes to it, to break down the starch into fructose syrup does not elevate insulin but your body takes it and turn it directly into visceral fat (fatty pancreas, fatty liver) if your choline levels are too low.
atomicspacebunny
(Bunny)
#80
Not exclusively in ketosis, it is mixture of glucose and ketones, in today’s industrialized world we just happen to burn more glucose than ketones, your body is made from sugar (ribo), you will never escape a glucose metabolism, thinking people in ancient time were exclusively in ketosis is the wrong way to think about it!
Your going to activate insulin whether you eat plants or meat (depending on portion size) so that whole exclusive ketosis theory is kind of silly!
VirginiaEdie
(Edith)
#81
Watch The Bitter Truth About Sugar, a lecture given by Dr. Robert Lustig, an endocrinologist. He goes into the biochemistry of how glucose, alcohol, and fructose are processed by the liver. Someone posted the lecture somewhere here on the forum. It is a fascinating lecture!
David_Stilley
(Full Metal KETO AF)
#82
@VirginiaEdie That was me recently
This lecture is right up your alley @atomicspacebunny if you haven’t seen it, pure science.
atomicspacebunny
(Bunny)
#83
I already posted that on the forum, I love Lustig!
Seen every lecture he made!
Yes, agreed pure science! 