Freezing cold while extended fasting - my remedies

(Karim Wassef) #1

Like most people who fast, I battled the “cold hands and feet” demon vigorously and looked for solutions that might work for others who’ve struggled though this.

First - my view on why we get so cold:

  1. Fasting driven cold extremities is not due to losing fat and therefore “not having enough insulation”. That’s minor in my view.
  2. Fasting reduces insulin and the first effect is a dramatic reduction in water retention (the flush). This actually reduces blood volume. That’s why blood pressure improves so dramatically. That’s great, except it’s not.
  3. Fasting increases ketones from body fat. That’s great, except that it redirects the already reduced blood volume to flow towards the fat reserves (the gut in my case). That means that there’s less blood and that blood is focused on energy transfer from my fat reserves… so a lot less to my hands and feet.
  4. Fasting also creates stress. Combined with the reduced blood volume and the reduction in insulin, the small blood vessels constrict (get smaller) so there’s less overall flow to the extremities. Insulin has a blood dilation by increasing nitric oxide, an effect that is lost during fasting.

So - EVERYTHING is driving freezing cold extremities and it is very uncomfortable.

Ok - so what to do about it? and I know some of this is controversial but I can only share what worked for me… I’m excluding obvious things like wear more clothes (not gonna do it) and exercise more (maybe but not just cause I’m cold):

  1. I increase blood volume first by increasing my salt intake by multiples… I didn’t measure but probably 3-4 teaspoons a day. I was 200lbs but my wife thought I was nuts. To be clear, I did NOT take it all at once. This was spread in pinches throughout the day. I used pink salt to get sodium and potassium and also took potassium supplements. So every hour or so, I’d take a pinch of salt - more if I was getting colder. That made me drink more water and I could feel warmer. This was great - my blood pressure went back up and I could see the water retention in my weight and I loved it.

  2. I increased my nitric oxide by taking beet root extract. Yes - I know it’s supposed to be a salt and water fast, but I needed to enjoy it too and the very minor intake from the extract wasn’t ketone or glucose impactful. No idea what it did to autophagy.

  3. I took 3 thermogenic supplements - tumeric/curcumin + ceylon/cinnamon + cayenne. I know this takes some getting used to but every bit helps.

  4. I took Niacin (B3) and a B-complex. This causes a temporary warm flush but in my case, it kind of broke the body away from it’s constricted cold state. It was like a daily reset.

  5. I used a cold vest around my stomach. I know this sounds ridiculous but it worked for me. Here’s what I think happened - the cold packs under a tight vest basically “chilled” the fat around my stomach and the increased blood flow in that area basically caused my blood to get colder. The body reacts by going into deeper thermogenesis and that warms the whole body more. Basically, in order to keep the fat warm enough, the rest has to get much warmer (since it doesn’t have a cold pack against it). I had to experiment with this - using a towel barrier to avoid skin burns, etc… but with cold on my stomach, the rest of my body was warm…

  6. I referenced this above but I used a tight exercise shirt and sweat vest and that helped a lot. It’s not the same as dressing in layers since it’s literally invisible under clothing and I can go out in a t-shirt and still be warm.

  7. I pushed myself to take cold showers. I hate this one, but it also helped keep me warm throughout the day and raised my overall skin temperature.

Ok - that’s my experience. I hope it helps someone else. :smiley:

(Carl Keller) #2

I’ve read that blood flow increases around our torso to mobilize fat as we burn it, which draws more blood from the extremities and leaves them colder than usual. I think it was Thomas DeLauer that said this and I’m pretty sure I read it somewhere else as well.

(Karim Wassef) #3

yup! - that’s my item 3 in my “why is this happening” list above.

(Daisy) #4

I have never tried an extended fast. The longest I’ve been able to go was about 25 hours and that was last time I was fat adapted (September-November). The longest this round (only been back to being fat adapted for a little over a week) has been 18 hours.
I would like to get to a 48 + hour fast for the autophagy. However, all these posts about mega cold extremities during EF have me very nervous. I have Raynaud’s syndrome, so already struggle very much with painfully cold hands and feet.

(Karim Wassef) #5

Many of these remedies I also found my researching Raynaud’s

I moved from one meal a day (23hr fast) to 2 day, 5 day, 7 day and 12 day… it’s a process.

The cold packs were frankly the biggest impact for me.

(Kristen Ann) #6

@Ketodaisy have you ever tried compression gloves? They help a little bit with my Raynauds.

(Daisy) #7

I have them lol. I use them when they get really bad, but the day to day I’m so used to it I don’t think about it lol. I am just recovering from my chilblains again on my toes. Blah!

(Allie) #8

I just wear more clothes, drink hot water, and move around as much as possible. As long as I can move around I’m good, it’s at work when I’m stuck at my desk that makes it difficult.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #9

Huh. Forgive me Karim, but I’m not sure how accurate all that is. My impression was that the body is pretty good at regulating blood volume. Isn’t the water we retain when eating carbs tied with the glycogen in the muscles (seems to me I read something about this on one of the body building threads)? One thing I do know is that the way insulin increases the blood pressure is by messing somehow with nitric oxide (NO), which is the main regulator of vasodilation. So much for keto clarity—I was reading about this just last week, and do you think I can remember the details or the citation? Sheesh!

Do you have a reference I could look at? Or are you as organized about that sort of thing as I am—which is to say, not.

(Bunny) #10

Some other interesting things I like dabbling in:

image

Hormesis: exposure to cold & heat e.g. a small dose of some type of stressor to increase mitochondrial biogenesis during autophagy while fasting.

Bitter melon extract and drinking cold water, higher Omega 3’s (10:1 to omega 6 ratio) w/DHA from marine life, deep breathing synchronization (Wim Hof et al.); bitter melon extract is the best one in my opinion to induce more BAT and activate brown adipose tissue (BAT) through the spleen kinase (breathing deeper; less oxygen needed when stressor hits adrenal reciprocation; endotoxin resistance) transport cycle combined with fasting…

Dr. Ben Bikman podcast episode March 18, 2019. Energy and Mass
(Shane) #11

It was the other way around for me. I used to get very cold below the knees before I started losing weight. Compression socks for fluid retention and circulation and an electric blanket helped.
I don’t worry too much now, but we had a cold snap (21 inside and 14 outside) last night and I used the heater for a little while and electric blanket to heat up the bed. Guess I could have put on long pants and a shirt instead. I would have been much colder at my old heavy weight.
I’m 45hrs in ATM and feel good.

(Karim Wassef) #12

hmmm… I know that taking in more salt and therefore having more water in my system increased my warmth… I don’t know where the majority of water is stored - but I assumed that with lower insulin and depletion of my glycogen, that there was blood volume reduction. How much? I don’t know.

I only know the cause and effect - not sure about the “why” in between them: more salt … more water retention … more warmth … those I know.

(Bob M) #13

I don’t think any of these are true. Cold showers for me make me cold, all day. The same with cold therapy (walking outside in the cold with reduced clothing on).

I got to the point where I was getting so cold while fasting only 12 hours that I had to stop fasting for a while. I (1) ate more and (2) started taking iodine. I now no longer get that cold while fasting.

I do take in more salt, though I also took in a lot of salt when I got cold, too. So, for me, salt doesn’t seem to affect how cold I get while fasting.

(Karim Wassef) #14

They’re true based on my experience. You May experience different outcomes. We each have an n=1. I encourage everyone to share their experiences with all or any of them.

I’m about to start a sequence of 4 two week water+salt fasts back to back interrupted by 2 days of vegan eating and finished off with a week of soft dry fasting one drink a day (ODAD) “water break”. That means I dry fast all day and only have one drinking window… I’m a carnivore by nature so this is going to be tough since I’d rather not eat than be vegan. I originally wanted to do a 60 day fast but decided that I don’t have enough body fat to sustain that long of a fast and broke it up into 4 x “12 day” buckets. If I can gain a little more before I start, I may go for 2 x “26 day” fasts instead and then the ODAD dry fasting week.

I plan on using these techniques again and will share my experience. The target start is Monday March 4th.

(Karim Wassef) #15

On fasting blood volume with and without salt - 14% reduction… wow - no wonder I was freezing :cold_face:

(Windmill Tilter) #16

Have you ever had an RMR test done? I bet it would be super interesting to see the results from a test done mid-fast. It may be that given your extensive fasting experience, your metabolism is stable during feasts, but has been trained to drop faster and lower than average in response to fasting conditions.

Let’s say your feasting RMR was 2000, it’s entirely possible your fasting metabolism could drop to 1200kcal in 24hrs. @ctviggen has reported feeling cold after just 12hrs! It’s possible you guys have super responsive metabolisms after a year of feast/fast cycles.

Getting your RMR checked can be as cheap as $50 depending on where you live, but the normal range is $50-$100. If you did one feasted, and one fasted, you’d have some pretty valuable info. There are lots of places that do them.

(Karim Wassef) #17

Thanks. I’ll look for it.

My experience is that my metabolism seems more demand driven - if I go lifting every day, even fasted, my body reacts by keeping me energetic.

In fact if I feel slow or sluggish, I know it means I need to go for a brisk walk or lifting. All of a sudden, my energy roars back up.

(Windmill Tilter) #18

Groupon always comes through.

https://www.groupon.com/deals/dexafit-dallas

(Karim Wassef) #19

very nice! I’ll do it when I’m at my peak re-feed weight before the fast and then take a few tests as I progress. I’m planning on beefing up by the end of Feb.

(Karim Wassef) #20

signed up! I’m getting Dexa and RMR… going to try a CAC while I’m at it… targeting March 4th … we’ll see