Fixing Broken Metabolism - Dr. Berg


(PJ) #74

Phinney is awesome. He’s probably the most officially legit guy we have in some respects. I see nothing in his video that seems inaccurate.

Something worth understanding. I have an interest in a different science field and got to know the leading researcher, a physicist. I found it interesting because despite he sees the individual’s reality of the topic, he is adamantly about “the data.” He will not say anything that does not have data to support it. He will not scoff at new ideas but he will insist that rather than running away with enthusiasm we recognize that there is not data to support it. I’ve never met anybody so absolutely “grounded in research” as this guy.

Phinney is like that. Nothing he said in that talk contradicted fasting. He didn’t say there was ‘no benefit’ he said here is the data about known issues with it. And he pointed out up front not only that it did have some known benefits (short term) but – to me this is the MOST IMPORTANT question – that we do not yet have PR research documenting what happens AFTER long term fasts – how much of that metabolic reduction, that nitrogen (protein) loss, is recovered? – and that could make all the difference. Maybe the body recovers that, and maybe it recovers even more. That would change the whole picture.

(Edited to add: there is always LBM lost in fasting, even after recovery. But there is a possibility that, like a corporate layoff, it’s for the best. As long as it’s not too extreme, and fat loss is larger, and the metabolism is not damaged after-recovery. The Biggest Loser, of course, was calorie restriction, and it’s the only ‘data’ he had on this, but it’s not close enough for me to consider avoiding fasting.)

Refeeding syndrome is major and the longer the fast and the worse it’s done the more it can hurt, seriously injure, and even kill people. It deserves more attention and much more emphasis with guidelines. It’s by far the most dangerous part of extended fasting.

It’s said on Fung’s forum that he recommends 10 days “because that gets the best compliance” (the forum officially does not support any longer fast though I see mentions of others) although he sometimes assigns 14 for the seriously ill. I suspect that aside from compliance it also reduces the chance that refeeding will kill someone and indirectly wreck his life.

I read a book written in 1910-1911 by Upton Sinclair, and a book written in 1934 (rev 1950) by Herbert Shelton. Dr. Shelton had supervised over 25,000 fasts at the point where he wrote that! And several other docs he refers to several times in the book also had large experience with this. They did it for health, only minimally for fat loss, since the number of people fat (and the degree) in 1934 was pretty dramatically less than now. His fasts were long and expected physical Herx symptoms in major ways. Although the book got a little boring in the middle (repetitive) because he was rebutting many popular claims, critics, and others he felt were inaccurate of the time – which we don’t care about now – still on the whole it’s a great book (cheap on kindle) and presents a much more serious, health-based, and detailed review of fasting than I think most of the modern enthusiasm includes. In part because nowdays any doc has to worry about getting sued so aside from ‘blood sugar’ ‘obesity’ ‘autophagy’ they can’t say much, like the gradual autophagy-effects on body systems and parts that are unwell (but which takes real time, sometimes 1-2 (in rare cases 3) months). It also focused on a ‘complete’ fast which means until the body finishes its cycle, the tongue clears and the ‘genuine hunger’ returns (we are talking, generally, six days to 1-2 months).

Try to talk to anybody anywhere about extended fasts and mostly all you get is moralizing about why you shouldn’t. Even articles online devolve into that. My point is only that the world of fasting in 1910 and 1934 and 1950 was pretty extensive and had a rather different approach and outlook than what we have now. It’s worth seeing the difference, if you’re really interested in fasting.

Phinney’s good. He stays with the data. We need researchers like that. We also need people with enthusiasm for pushing the boundaries and driving the layman experiments and then the research experiments on new stuff. There’s room for everyone. This field is niche of niche as it is. Not exactly overcrowded. :slight_smile:


(Omar) #75

isn’t Dr Phinney who said about the biggest loser participants that they had irreversible metabolic damage.

that is a very big statement to make.


(PJ) #76

Dr. Phinny pointed to peer reviewed data. The data says their metabolisms are very low even 5 years after and despite regaining the weight. That is not a big statement on his part, it’s just an observation of the documented facts, in this case.

The problem, as he himself has pointed out, is that we do not yet have research. He mentioned Dr. Volek was working on that. The only research available was on caloric restriction, not fasting, that’s the one he pointed to, because it’s the best we’ve got so far.

But of course, CR is not fasting. So, it has limits in terms of whether we should assume it’s the same until proven otherwise, or assume it’s not the same because a/ we hope it’s not or b/ we’ve seen in the layman’s world empirical or anecdotal evidence that it’s not.

He was in a conference with endless people waxing wide-eyed on the glory of fasting. He just wanted to point out some things glossed over. I think it’s good he did that. It doesn’t diss fasting to respect what little we know and observe what we don’t.

At least… as I see it. :slight_smile:


(less is more, more or less) #77

Third-Party sourcing of your attribution will be most helpful for context and accuracy.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #78

Prof. Bikman talks about whether or not the brain needs glucose at 22:10:


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #79

I believe it was Kevin Hall, actually, though Dr. Phinney may have been referring to Hall’s study.


(Omar) #81

Thanks Paul


(Omar) #82

between minute 6 and minute 8


(less is more, more or less) #83

Thanks, @Alpha (Omar) for that.

Dr. Phinney carefully qualifies that statement in his summation regarding their overall experience. It’s in the context of “calorie deprivation” and “extreme exercise,” and not fasting. I don’t see Phinney’s claim as too extraordinary?


(Omar) #84

The topic (The presentation ) of Dr Phinney is about fasting. So I am not sure why he would bring the biggest loser experement in this topic. Also he was very firm and strong in stating that the metabolic damage is irreversible.

I am not qualified to examine the claim of irreversible damage to the metabolism . but I still think it is too strong (wrong or right )


(Omar) #85

this is the single most informative presentation I ever listened to.

thanks


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #86

I’ve always felt that drs. Phinney and Fung were a lot closer together than may appear. Phinney’s objection, as I understand it, is that fasts over four or five days can be dangerous, if not properly approached, and I have heard Megan Ramos in person advise not fasting longer than about four days, especially without medical supervision. Phinney’s position is based on Cahill’s famous study, “Starvation in Man,” and also to some extent, I believe on Keys’s caloric-restriction experiments during World War II. Fung has a great deal of case data on the safety and efficacy of short-term fasting, but the experiments Phinney is referring to were not short-term ones.


(PJ) #87

Just linking to the brief partial transcript of Phinney on this topic in another thread.


#88

Sorry for necroposting, but when I see either “Dr. Berg” or “Broken Metabolism”, I experience spontaneous spasms at the keyboard.

As to Berg, Oy.

As to Broken Metabolism, Oy Oy. I hear that phrase used often, but I put it in the same category as climate catastrophe, cultural competence, toxic masculinity, etc… A phrase commonly used assuming we all know what it means and agree it exists, but for which there is no evidence or definition.

A guy six feet under, dead for 3 years, I agree his metabolism is broken. But someone who has a lowered metabolic rate after having lost hundreds of pounds? Sounds like a healthy adaptation to me, one that is associated with increased longevity in animals and possibly humans. I still don’t understand the problem with not having to eat as much as someone else just to stay alive.

Sorry for the rant - Dr. Berg (Oy) made me do it.


(Carl D Black) #89

lol, well, I have to agree with your feelings about “broken metabolism.” I have to call BS on that. But as to Dr. Berg, well, I have lost close to 80 lbs following his Healthy Keto and haven’t spent a dime on his wares. So I can’t complain.


(Doug) #90

Berg… :smile: (Ugh.)


#91

There you go, being all constructive and gracious right in the middle of my snide cynicism. So Berg has positively impacted people’s lives while I have contributed exactly zilch. So what’s yer point?


(Bunny) #92

Some other good points: Dr. Berg and people like Hyperlipid to touch up on the finer details, we would be up the creek without a paddle?

This could all be proprietary information if people like this did not exist and you would be paying through the nose to get it?


#93

Totally agree. I was just marvelling at how positively I’ve been impacted by information that’s simply unavailable through traditional channels at any price.


(Paulene ) #94

These are very old studies, 50 and 76 years respectively, and Key’s study used men under 35 in a healthy weigh range (consciencious objectors in place of military service) - he had no intetest in obesity per se.

I would hope there are more recent and more targeted studies.