First Extended Fast - Keigan


#21

According to my scale,

  • 99.8kg/220lbs with 31.4%bf

#22

Today I pulled in belt notch number three which has never been used. I’m below 100kg for the first time in 30 years.

Feel good, 7600 steps yesterday as recorded on the iPhone, good mood, optimistic, clear head no fog, still not hungry.

  • morning 16oz coffee with 1 or 2 tablespoons of coconut oil and a drop of cinnamon oil
  • water with salt, yesterday was at least 120oz

I have a 30oz stainless milk shake cup that I use for my water, adding a few dashes of salt each time I fill it.


#23

Ordered some hazelnut oil to change up the flavoring of my coffee, should be here before the weekend.


(Stacy ) #24

When you say 14 to 21days, does that mean you are fasting completely for those days or are you doing 20/4? I don’t think I could go more than a day or two without eating anything.


#25

I was intermittent fasting for two weeks at 20:4, then I decided to try three day extended fast - now i’m extending my three day fast to either 14 or 21 days.


(Stacy ) #26

That’s so impressive. I’m sure it takes time to get to where you are. Thanks for the quick reply! Good luck on your extended fast, will stay tuned to gear how you are doing


(Stacy ) #27

How do you feel about chicken stock /broth during intermittent fasting? Would broth be considered eating and would it break the fast?


#28

It is calories and nutrition, in small quantities you might not notice. You need to do what you and your body can accomplish. I’m good with my water and enhanced coffee so far.


#29

Ok - resetting my count.

Dec 13 is day 05 of my extended fast

I’m now planning to exit the extended fast around Dec 23 so I can introduce food back into my body to support my next feast on Dec 26.

Following the fast i’m going to change my macros to reduce my protein significantly as my body is clearly fat adapted. - like <50g combined carb and protein.


#30

Dec 14 is day 06 of my extended fast.

Last night I experienced what felt like bloating or my body keeping water, as belt notch three was snug. Then last night I had the best nights sleep of any night in months.

This morning my pants are hanging on me with belt notch three. This belt notch will remain the same today and tomorrow I go out to buy new pants and I have two notches remaining on this belt. The problem right now is the the jean fabric is all bunched up around my waist which is not comfortable.

Yesterday was 3700 steps as the temperatures never went above 22F. Also half an avocado…

This morning my energy is wired for sound, clear mind, excellent mood, i’m Ready to go!


#31

I found a link to a pdf within the forums, the contents of which are fascinating to me.

https://www.colorado.edu/intphys/Class/IPHY3700_Greene/pdfs/atkins/McDonald1996.pdf

I have many traits from the Autism Spectrum yet not enough to determine High Functioning Autism. One trait is my photographic memory which provides the ability to absorb and assimilate information rapidly. Below is my takeaway summary of the pdf document and the reasoning that i’m doing to initiate a different Keto Approach after my extended fast concludes.

Starvation and the ketogenic diet:

In one sense, the ketogenic diet is identical to starvation, except that food is being consumed. That is, the metabolic effects which occur and the adaptations which are seen during starvation are roughly identical to what is seen during a ketogenic diet. The primary difference is that the protein and fat intake of a ketogenic diet will replace some of the protein and fat which would otherwise be used for fuel during starvation.

Adaptation to starving:

Starvation can be broken into 5 distinct phases. In the first phase, during the first 8 hours of starvation, the body is still absorbing fuel from previous meals. Within 10 hours after the last carbohydrate containing meal, roughly 50% of the body’s total energy requirements are being met by free fatty acids (FFA).

In the second phase, the first day or two of starvation, the body will rely on FFA and the breakdown of liver glycogen for its energy requirements. Liver glycogen is typically gone within 12-16 hours.

In the third phase, during the first week of starvation, the body will drastically increase the production of glucose from protein and other fuels such as lactate, pyruvate and glycerol. This is called gluconeogenesis (the making of new glucose). At the same time, tissues other than the brain are decreasing their use of glucose, relying on FFA and ketones instead. This helps to spare what little glucose is available for the brain. During this phase, protein breakdown increases greatly.

The fourth phase of starvation is ketosis, which begins during the third or fourth day of starvation, and continues as long as carbohydrates are restricted. The major adaptations during ketosis is increased utilization of ketones by the brain. The final phase, which begins in the second week, is marked by decreasing protein breakdown and gluconeogenesis, as the major protein sparing adaptations to ketosis occur.

One difference between fasting and a ketogenic diet is that the slight insulin response to dietary protein will cause blood glucose to be maintained at a slightly higher level, approximately 80-85 mg/dl. This most likely occurs due to the conversion of dietary protein to glucose in the liver.

Although the liver is producing ketones at its maximum rate by day three, blood ketone levels will continue to increase finally reaching a plateau by three weeks.

Fat and ketones use during short term starvation:

Measurements of fuel use show that approximately 90% of the body’s total fuel requirements are being met by FFA and ketones by the third day. After three weeks of starvation, the body may derive 93% of its fuel from FFA.

For an individual with a metabolic rate of 2700 calories per day, roughly 2400 calories of FFA (approximately 260 grams of fat) are used to fuel the body. Considering that one pound of fat contains 3,500 calories, this represents a loss of almost two-thirds of a pound of fat per day. Smaller individuals with lower metabolic rates will use proportionally less fat. While this extreme rate of fat loss makes starvation attractive as a treatment for obesity, the problems associated with total fasting (especially body protein loss) make it unacceptable.

The main point is that the metabolic state of ketosis causes a large scale shift from glucose to fat metabolism resulting in a much larger oxidation of fat than is seen on a more ‘balanced’ diet. The ketogenic diet is an attempt to harness this shift to cause maximum fat loss and minimum muscle loss.

Fat and ketones use during long term starvation:

Most tissues except the brain, stop using ketones for fuel after the third week of ketosis. This is especially true for skeletal muscle. While muscle initially derives up to 50% of its energy requirements from ketones, this drops to 4-6% by the third week of ketosis. This is thought to occur for the following reason.

During the first few days of ketosis, the brain is incapable of using ketones for fuel. By using a large amount of ketones for fuel, skeletal muscle prevents a rapid increase in blood ketone levels, which might cause acidosis. As time passes and the brain adapts to using ketones for fuel, skeletal muscle must stop using ketones for fuel, to avoid depriving the brain of fuel. For all practical purposes, with long term starvation, the primary fuel of all tissues except the brain is FFA, not ketones.

Changes in glucose and protein use during starvation:

At the same time that FFA and ketone use is increasing, the body’s use of glucose and protein are going down. This is a critical adaptation for two reasons.

First and foremost, there are tissues in the body which can not use FFA for fuel, requiring glucose. By decreasing their use of glucose, those tissues which do not require glucose for energy spare what little is available for the tissue which do require it. Thus, there is always a small requirement for glucose under any condition. As we shall see, this small glucose requirement can easily be met without the consumption of carbohydrates.

The second reason is that a reduction in protein losses is critical to survival during total starvation. The loss of too much muscle tissue will eventually cause death. From a fat loss standpoint, the ‘protein sparing’ effect of ketosis is also important to prevent lean body mass losses.

Momentary summary:

The implication of the adaptations is that the body does not require dietary carbohydrates for survival (exercise and muscle growth are a separate issue). That is, there is no such thing as an essential dietary carbohydrate as the body can produce what little glucose it needs from other sources. Of course, the price paid is the loss of body protein, which will ultimately cause death if continued for long periods of time.

The addition of dietary protein will maintain ketosis, while preventing the breakdown of bodily protein. In brief, rather than break down bodily protein to produce glucose, the body will use some of the incoming dietary protein for glucose production. This should allow maximal fat utilization while sparing protein losses.

Decreased nitrogen excretion via the kidneys:

The excretion of ketones through the kidneys has an important implication for nitrogen sparing. The kidney produces ammonia, which requires nitrogen, as a base to balance out the acidic nature of ketones and prevent the urine from becoming acidic.

As ketosis develops, however, there is an adaptation in the kidney to prevent excessive ammonia loss.

However urinary excretion of ketones does not increase, staying extremely constant from the first few days of ketosis on. Therefore, most of the ketones being absorbed by the kidney are not being excreted. The resorption of ketones appears to be an adaptation to prevent further nitrogen losses, which would occur from increasing ammonia synthesis. This adaptation has the potential to spare 7 grams of nitrogen (roughly 42 grams of body protein) per day from being lost.


#32

The interesting takeaway is an observation that potentially there is a difference in macros for entering a Keto diet vs once the body is fat adapted.

In my mind, all of the Keto calculators are describing macro percentages based upon entering a Keto diet, not considering that after a timeframe the body has adopted to using Ketones for fuel and has greatly reduced its need for protein.


#33

As a note I am:

  • not diabetic
  • not on any meds
  • not interested in adding muscle mass
  • primary objective is to drop the tummy fat
  • secondary object is autophagy

#34

For myself - The bottom line takeaway is that once your body is fat adapted, any carb and protein amount over roughly 42g is potentially taking away from the FFA that could be consumed.

Based upon this information I’m going to structure the following Keto Approach post my extended fast:

Week 1:

  • carb feast to load the liver with glucose/glycogen and reset the metabolism
  • keto recommended macros for a three days or more

Week 2:

  • extended fast for 7 days, water with salt, coffee with drop of cinnamon oil and small amount coconut oil

Week 3 and 4

  • revised macros based upon <50g combined carb and protein towards <800 calories for two weeks

Lather, rinse, repeat.


(Ethan) #35

I don’t get the reason to “reset the metabolism” here.


#36

To keep the body guessing as a potential way to prevent the slow down of T3 which influences metabolism. As after three weeks the body has further reduced its production and consumption of Ketones - I want the body to defend against starvation which the presence of Ketones seems to signal.


(Ethan) #37

Right…but doesn’t the body slow ketone production and consumption so that it can directly burn FFA? Ketones are often made through inefficient fat burning–a byproduct almost. It would seem preferable to be in the fat-adapted state than not.


#38

Which last about three weeks, where Ketones remain high as the body is consuming FFA as fuel. I’m seeking to ride that sonsumption for the three weeks were the Ketones are signaling the body to defend against starvation - after that three weeks the quality of life degrades.

Rules of three:

  • you can survive three minutes without air
  • you can survive three days without water
  • you can survive three weeks without food
  • you can survive three months without hope

Beyond those durations, quality of live and likelihood of survival diminish greatly.


(Ethan) #39

I disagree with those rules though. You can certainly survive for more than three weeks without food. After the three-week period, a ketogenic diet seems to be preferable though to me than repeating. I am not seeing the benefit. The initial phase is really the time that the body is working improperly. After that, it uses fats completely and efficiently…


#40

Gain what you can from your experiences in life and use what you find is valuable - I’m not interested in debating or promoting.

I’m using this thread as my log of experiences and as a sounding board for my understandings - you are welcome to disagree or offer opinion.