Feels like I’m dying after four days trying carnivore

#169

Thanks everyone all the comments have been very helpful

(Bob M) #170

I’ll counter that protein article with this one:

I think it’s much more complex than some proteins = glucose. I’ve tested my blood sugar using a continuous glucose monitor with ridiculously high proteins, 120+ grams/meal, 160 grams a meal, etc. and did not get a rise. And I set out specifically to get a rise.

(mole person) #171

That misses the point of what I posted. My whole point was that amino acids get converted to energy WITHOUT needing to be turned into glucose first. Further, the article you just linked says the very same thing:

“Since amino acids can not be stored in the body for later use, any amino acid not required for immediate biosynthetic needs is deaminated [nitrogen is removed] and the carbon skeleton is used as metabolic fuel (10-20 % in normal conditions) or converted into fatty acids via acetyl CoA. The main products of the catabolism of the carbon skeleton of the amino acids are pyruvate, oxaloacetate, α-ketoglutarate, succinyl CoA, fumarate, acetyl CoA and acetoacetyl CoA.” (H.D. Urquiza Hernandez, MD, PhD)

From the list above, oxaloacetate, α-ketoglutarate, succinyl CoA, fumarate, and acetyl CoA can all feed into the Krebs cycle, which is the process by which ATP (energy) is generated in the mitochondria. (In biochem speak, they are called “Krebs cycle intermediates.”) The carbon atoms from amino acids can be converted into these “energy precursors,” and the nitrogen atoms can be turned into urea (a waste product) and excreted

#172

The sugar/carb cravings are a dead giveaway that you are still going through sugar withdrawal (aka keto flu). It can be very unpleasant, but keep your eye on the prize, it’s temporary. There are some things you can do to ease the effects, which you can find all over this forum and the internet by searching for keto flu.

(Kiranjeet Bhabra) #173

Hows ur carinivore lifestyle? :sweat_smile:

#174

It’s getting much better , still adjusting but no IBS symptoms which is a miracle. How about you?

(Kiranjeet Bhabra) #175

Hi havent started yet anxiety is quite bad pass few days…jus returned to my home town…will start on monday tryin LCHF for 1week then move into keto…wow no IBS thats v v good…:grin:

#176

I agree that the modern incarnation of carnivore is new, but we do have examples of primarily carnivorous cultures in the past. Dr Weston A Price studied the Inuit and the Maasai. Both of which ate very little plant foods (what he was unable to find was an example of a healthy vegan population). A couple things they had in common were that they ate a high fat diet (Inuit was estimated to be 80% of calories from fat, can’t remember Maasai at the moment), they ate the whole animal and fermented some of their meat. The natives of the great plains were also fairly carnivorous, and they also ate a very high fat diet of bison meat and fat. We don’t know the effects of not consuming organ meat or fermenting meat. It is obviously not necessary to eat organ meat for a few years, but I don’t consider a diet to be successfully proven until we are into the third generation of people eating it. Low-fat has certainly failed that test. I suspect that the modern carnivore diet may be too low in fat for some people. @Lbomb how much fat are you eating? You might try ketogenic proportions within carnivore.

(Robert C) #177

Thanks for these well laid out thoughts on this topic (the three generations part seems right on)!

I don’t know if there are any generally accepted “rules” on Carnivore macro breakdown but - based on what we know about keto - I think this point is correct. I write this because I think the “modern carnivore diet” is (I think) being implemented mostly by eating steak with few nose-to-tail people.

I (above) was all over the map with responses but, I’ll try to summarize:

  • Carnivore is probably good (short term) if you are battling some disorder (or weight loss needs that won’t even succumb to strict keto) and want to try it to see if it works (or want to use it as the starting point in an elimination diet).
  • Carnivore may be generally good (long term) if your 23andme report comes back and you are, in large part, Inuit, Maasai or (as with the natives of the great plains) can trace yourself back to a fairly carnivorous bunch of ancestors.
  • But, if you have no medical reason to try it and you can get weight loss with keto and your ancestors came from places with lots of easy to access fruits and vegetables during several warm months each year (which they took advantage of) then, deciding to go completely Carnivore forever is an unknown risk (so should not be promoted as an on-equal-footing WOE compared to the much better researched much longer lived keto diet).
(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #178

Can’t we all? I mean, the current theory is that our brains grew to their current size because we stopped being herbivores and began eating meat.

(Robert C) #179

We did well evolutionarily because we are omnivores.
We retained the ability to deal with both so well that some people can live well exclusively on one or the other.

My statement is about groups that preferred meat to the point that plant based food would only be eaten as a last resort.

(Omar) #180

polar bear can eat kelp, but I never heard any polar bear claim that he is vegetarian :blush:

while they may have found vigitables stuck to our ancestors teeth that does not say they were vegetarians and if we were vegetarian that is like one second in a 24 hours scale of our evolution day.

(Kristen) #181

It sounds like Keto Flu! It’s the worst! Pickle juice helps!! Also try supplementing in sodium, potassium, and magnesium! :slight_smile: it does get better though, I don’t crave carbs or sugar anymore and I’ve been keto for 1.5 weeks.

(Kristin) #182

Be careful with watching the scale as you build muscle. It’s probably going to go higher rather than lower. Find different metrics to track or you’ll likely get discouraged.

#183

Hey, Im also a newbie, but Ive started twice. The first time my keto flu was lame but manageable… then I spent a week in Mexico… started again when I got back. A week into my second start, I was so sick I seriously thought I had the real flu. It was awful and I knew my body just wanted a carb. I drank pickle juice and pushed through it. It got better very quickly. But it was AWFUL
NOW- I am not hungry until noon (I wake up at 5am) and my energy levels are so high. I lift heavy 4 days a week and while I still bonk at the gym, I am hitting PRs and feeling good about my workouts. I can only assume they will get better and I will stop hitting the wall as Im only 2 weeks in.
I say stick with it, drink the pickle juice!!

(mole person) #184

Yah, I stopped bonking at the gym around the fourth week. And then I felt amazing. Further, there was an added benefit. Muscle soreness lasted only a fraction of the time it had pre keto.

(Chris) #185

5 days ago, please read the entire thread and not just the original post, when responding. :slight_smile:

#186

Hi RobC. I recently had some blood tests done and have seen some big increases in my iron tests. I’ve been carnivore for approx 6 months, nearly all beef.
I hope you don’t mind me asking if your iron overload due to Hemochromatosis or from simply eating too much iron? I’m a little confused by it all. My Dr wants me to wait a few months to get retested and if still high then get the genetic test for Hemochromatosis.
I’m wondering if just eating a lot of beef could have made the difference alone or maybe I have the Hemochromatosis gene, I’m Irish and we have the highest rate of Hemochromatosis in the world.
My Ferritin levels are still within the lab range but have jumped massively since my last tests but my Transferrin Saturation is above. I know I’m not in the danger zone by any means yet but I want to manage it before any damage is done.
I think you are so right to say that people should be getting their iron checked before/during a carnivore way of eating, particularly those from high risk groups. It’s just not something I have ever seen talked about in the carnivore community but it a real potential health risk for some and as the symptoms are not particularly obvious until organ damage has occurred. If you have any further information/advice on this I’d really appreciate it. Thanks.

(Robert C) #187

Hi @AnneN ,

My iron overload is due to eating too much iron (i.e. my iron absorption rate was higher than my elimination rate). My 23andMe test came back showing I do not have the genes that include Hemochromatosis (it is only $200 and gives you this information plus a lot more important health related information). Anyone can take that test without a doctor’s approval (as far as I know).

You should separate out the Hemochromatosis possibility immediately – if your iron levels did not rise as fast or dipped a little in two months – maybe you doctor will want to skip the test? That’s not good – you want to know this information. I am wondering why the doctor did not ask for the test immediately for a high risk individual with a recent jump in these levels?

Women have special worries about this – they have a great advantage in that they can get rid of blood every month (people with Hemochromatosis usually give blood often for the same iron reducing effects). Women’s vitamins have extra iron in them to counteract this but a pre-menopausal woman with jumps in their iron numbers means that post-menopausal – could be in real trouble (whether due to Hemochromatosis or simply a slower iron elimination rate vs. absorption rate).

Think also about whether Carnivore (or some new exhaustive exercise routine) has greatly reduced or eliminated your “special time” output. That might increase your iron quickly. Or, the opposite – if that output has increased – it would be more alarming that your iron input is still overloading it.

You can research on Google but here are some things to dig into:

  • Learn the difference between heme and non-heme iron
  • Be careful about “good food” vs. “bad food” lists – sometimes searches come up with sites that are talking about iron deficiency (so you get the exact opposite answer - so it seems confusing and you want to give up - but don’t)
  • Eggs are good
  • Chicken and pork are lower in iron that beef
  • Calcium (milk and cheese) with a red meat meal with slow absorption (there are other things that will also)

In this primer (link below) they point out that people with normal iron absorption get about 20 to 25 percent of the heme iron and people with Hemochromatosis get about 80 to 100 percent. So it seems you can mimic Hemochromatosis with an all red meat diet - which would be bad if your elimination rate happened to be low.

Nose-to-tail Carnivore of a variety of animals vs. just always modern engineered beef muscle meat might be the answer here if you want to stay Carnivore.

#188

Hi @RobC

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply so thoroughly.

I actually thought the 23andMe test was only available in the US and that it was a blood test but just looked it up and see it’s a saliva test and available in Europe which is great news.

I believe my Dr does not think my levels are high enough yet to do anything and wants to repeat the test in 3-6 months. Because there is a much higher prevalence of Hemochromatosis in this country I think Dr’s might wait longer to deal with it as they are used to seeing much higher numbers than mine. If I do have it, or if I am just holding onto iron, I want to fix it early before it gets any worse. I’m prepared to wait the 3-6 months as I’m modifying my diet - eating less beef and having more pork, eggs, cheese. Will see if this brings the numbers down.

I’m not postmenopausal yet but fast approaching, this could also be another factor. No exhaustive exercise routines here!

I would happily give blood at the Transfusion service but I can’t as I lived in the UK and it’s still banned to donate due to CJD. I don’t take any supplements with iron or eat any fortified food.

I’m glad to be getting more informed about this now and plan to stay ahead of it rather than let it get considerably worse.

Thanks again Rob for your help. Much appreciated.