FB Debate about Carbohydrates


#61

No, I wasn’t thinking about Phinney or Kresser at all.

I was thinking about biochemistry.

This is general knowledge of biochemistry, and how prebiotics work in human digestion.


#62

If you read the article I cited there is research that VLC or ZC diets cause the biome to deteriorate. So perhaps there’s something missing or wrong inthe biochemistry you’re citing. Can you give me a link?

Don’t get me wrong. I’m fascinated by ZC, I’m just not about to bet my life on it and I wouldn’t use it as an argument against a carb eater. This was my point all along. That vilifying carbs to an extreme degree does nothing to help convert people to low-carb.


#63

Here’s one link describing inulin…one type of prebiotic fibre.

https://www.ghc.org/kbase/topic.jhtml?docId=hn-2847006#hn-2847006-how-it-works

From the link:

Fructo-oligosaccharides (FOS) and Other Oligosaccharides

The average daily intake of oligosaccharides by people in the United States is estimated to be about 800 to 1,000 mg. For the promotion of healthy bacterial flora, the usual recommendation for FOS, GOS, or inulin is 2,000 to 3,000 mg per day with meals. In the studies on diabetes and high blood lipids ( cholesterol and triglycerides ), amounts ranged from 8 to 20 grams per day.

Where to Find It
FOS and inulin are found naturally in Jerusalem artichoke, burdock , chicory, leeks, onions, and asparagus. FOS products derived from chicory root contain significant quantities of inulin,22 a fiber widely distributed in fruits, vegetables and plants, which is classified as a food ingredient (not as an additive) and is considered to be safe to eat.23 In fact, inulin is a significant part of the daily diet of most of the world’s population.24 FOS can also be synthesized by enzymes of the fungus Apergillus niger acting on sucrose. GOS is naturally found in soybeans and can be synthesized from lactose (milk sugar). FOS, GOS, and inulin are available as nutritional supplements in capsules, tablets, and as a powder.

Possible Deficiencies
As FOS, GOS, and inulin are not essential nutrients, no deficiency state exists.


#64

That’s a pretty limited and non-scientific presentation that completely ignores polysaccharides and other fibers, then finally makes a circular argument “since they are non-essential…” Basically summarizing as “since they are classified as non-essential they are therefore non-essential.” I’m not sure about the conflict of interest as I’m not familiar with the Kaiser organisation.

Try this scientific source instead:

We understand very well that a sick microbiome will kill you. Just not overnight. So the question of essential or non-essential is largely one of semantics.

That said, I’m interested in what you said about the same chemistry occurring in the gut biome and as does in byproducts of ketosis. I’m not aware of that. Seems to me the gut biome is much more complex and than merely as the production of a few ketone bodies.


#65

Yogi, there’s tons and tons and tons of information on fibre prebiotics. I thought you wanted a simple explanation. I selected a simple one. There are many forms of prebiotics, so the volume of literature to describe which microbe digests which type if fibre into what sort of by products is huge.

It’s like you asking me to go fetch a description of a house.

There are a variety of people with distressed microbiomes. This includes people who eat high carb diets, moderate carb diets, low carb diets and zero carb diets.

People eating ancestral diets (like the Maasai and Inuit) provide evidence into what are considered “essential” nutrients.


#66

Also, I’d like to comment that those who cite the Inuit example as support for their zero carb diet might remember that the inuit also:

  • buried and fermented their meat as an essential part of their diet (the protein ferment into carbohydrates)
  • ate meat raw in order to get enough nutrition from it
  • ate every part of the animal, balls, tusks, marrow and all
  • ate only wild animals, who have a totally different body composition to raised animals (whether grass-fed or not).

The link below shows the science that the Inuit gut microbiome was pretty much the same as a normal modern population. So if you go ZC it would be a good idea to monitor your gut health.


Do I HAVE to eat my veggis?
#67

That statement is totally untrue. They provide interesting ideas for research. They provide no evidence whatsoever of the general efficacy of zero fiber intake. We are still trying to even understand their diet, let alone understand why their gut biome didn’t wither away and digest their gut lining.

I’m asking you to provide evidence for your statement that those in ketosis have pretty much the same effect as those eating fiber on a normal balanced diet. If your only “evidence” for this is that the Inuit didn’t die, that is no evidence at all (see above).

In the research papers I linked there are plenty of statements that fiber is essential to health, along with the evidence of why.


#68

@Fiorella are you actually ZC and zero fiber? If not, why not?


#69

Look yogi…I am not responding going forward from here.

I’ve patiently answered your questions, provided cogent responses, backed them up with resources when asked, and each time I get a new rebuttal.

Here’s where I leave it:
" carbohydrates are not essential nutrients"

I invite anyone else on this forum to continue to engage in discussion with you as you aim to show that carbohydrates are essential nutrients.

Not sure this back and forth is getting anywhere fruitful. With all respect, I wish to keep in peace with forum discussions.


#70

In fairness, you provided one link and it was from a hospital making a general statement about a particular type of fiber. I provided a link to an independent peer reviewed study into all fibers and their role as prebiotics for health.

I appreciate your debate (which you initiated by saying that my arguments “didn’t fly”). I’ll leave it with:

  • “fiber is essential to a healthy gut biome, which is essential for healthy living.”

Though fiber does not fit the classical definition of an essential nutrient, it is considered almost universally by the scientific research to be necessary for healthy living. I could cite quality research all night on this. You will find very little evidence for the opposite.

http://library.med.utah.edu/NetBiochem/nutrition/lect1/2_1.html

Playing the semantics game of “yes but it’s not technically ‘essential’” is failing to see the point that if you desire health, fiber is essential. Sure, you can eat ZC and slowly get ill and die over the course of a few decades. Or you can dream that somehow you are like an Inuit or Masai.

But the reality is, normal people without fiber are inflamed with a sick gut biome.

I also invite anyone to show me any scientific research into a modern ZC diet that doesn’t present as inflammation and disease emanating from the gut.


#71

Have fun @amber.


#72

New slogan for a t-shirt??? #taterhater :joy:


(Cathy) #73

And then there is Dr. Micheal Eades take on fibre…

https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2006/08/30/is-increased-fiber-intake-really-a-good-thing/


(Brad) #74

BSCE, MSCE, bus. mang minor, math minor. Will this allow me to be talked to? Carbs are for suckers


(Megan) #75

I’ve found this discussion about fiber very interesting. I do eat vegetables but are they necessary? I have a lot of food sensitivities especially to certain raw vegetables and fruits (carrots, peppers, avocados, apples for example) but I can eat them in small quantities. This is probably one reason (of many) that I gravitated towards the low carb woe. I found the following video very interesting and it touches on the fiber issue and potatoes in particular. She also talks about why certain people could have those sensitivities. Is fiber necessary? I don’t know but it sounds like dairy can help with your gut biome as well and I haven’t found conclusive evidence that fiber helps you unless you’re eating a diet high in processed carbs to begin with.

Ha! Love it! Someone get on that!


#76

I haven’t listened to it yet, but Jimmy Moore just interviewed Dr. Ede on episode 1238 - I wonder if she addresses carbs/fiber in her talk with him.

http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/shownotes/15920/1238-dr-georgia-ede-makes-the-connection-between-brain-chemistry-and-diet/


(Jacquie) #77

Haven’t listened yet but I like her blog. :slight_smile:


(Megan) #78

I’ll have to listen to that interview and start reading her blog. Thanks!


(Mike W.) #79

I like trains.


(I am a Dog (Dog's eat until they burst!)) #80

Here is the latest blog from Dr. Michael Eades:

https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2006/08/30/is-increased-fiber-intake-really-a-good-thing/?utm_content=buffer56890&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer