Fat loss on CICO?

#61

@siobhan already has one!

(Jessica) #62

Thatā€™s what I canā€™t wrap my head around. I donā€™t see the difference to calorie restriction + keto diet.*

Really sorry Iā€™m so annoying, but thatā€™s really interesting for me.

  • I meant Calorie restriction combined with a Keto diet. Not compared to a Keto diet.
(eat more) #63

iā€™m following that one :blush:
thatā€™s what sheā€™s doingā€¦not what youā€™re doingā€¦inquiring (nosy) minds want to know lol

#64

Calorie-restriction is classically done while still eating carbohydrates which raises insulin and when insulin is present, the mechanisms for releasing body fat are severely limited, if not completely suppressed.

When eating keto, carbs are strictly controlled, so insulin will drop over time, but for people that are severely insulin resistant (IR), it may take a very long time, which is why fasting is advised by people like Dr. Jason Fung and practiced by our esteemed leaders @richard and @carl.

Calorie-restriction in the context of a SAD/SWD is a downward spiral since the body will eventually reduce energy expenditure making it unsustainable.

Calorie-restriction in the context of keto, occurs while insulin is minimized and there is free access to body fat to make up the difference.

(eat more) #65

when youā€™re fat adapted youā€™re supplementing the food you put in your mouth with the fat that is already on your body.
restricting calories tells your body to conserve energy and slow the metabolism in case thereā€™s a fight or flight situation where energy is needed or if thereā€™s a shortage of food

not restricting calories allows the body to become more efficient and work at top speed

keto is about hormones not caloriesā€¦
insulin is the ā€œstorage hormoneā€ the best way to not store (fat) is to reduce the likelihood of that hormone going to work
reducing or eliminating carbs reduces insulinā€¦

#66

Planning a BIG one next! 21 days 3000 calories a day. Should be fun!

#67

Iā€™m looking forward to learning what you get as results.

(Bacon for the Win) #68

thanks for this podcast. He and I have similar backgrounds (Avionics then hospitals) so Iā€™m looking forward to listening.

(Kel Ta) #69

this is what I think is important to note- that there is caloric restriction of fat once fat adapted in order to burn own fat storage, correct? this is the part that I think many people missā€¦

(Kel Ta) #70

agreedā€¦ it is about insulin on keto but I think once fat adapted people decrease fat consumption to burn own fatā€¦so there is a reduction in the number of calories someone is ingesting from fat

#71

For some people yes, and for others no.

For some people, as you increase calories, they tend to burn more. Dr. Adam Nally reports eating substantially more during his early keto-adaptation and lost substantial amounts of weight. Others have similar results, so itā€™s more about the hormones and fuel-partitioning as well as the thermogenic action of brown adipose tissue (BAT) and other tricks the body has of getting rid of extra calories.

For others, after their hormones have adapted a bit, itā€™s likely that they will need to reduce calories and let the difference between intake and expenditure come from body fat, but in a rush to lose weight, many people neglect to get adapted first or they reduce calories too much and end up reducing their BMR which becomes a vicious cycle.

(eat more) #72

yo-yo dieting while keto

(gooeykablooey) #73

But the ā€œproofā€ you provided of people discussing how they lost weight on keto by controlling cravings was all anecdotal. There are so few studies on true keto diet most of what we have to go on is anecdotal and discussion of our n=1 experiences.

(Siobhan) #74

How do you correlate this with the studies mentioned in The Obesity Code where limiting calories has pretty much never resulted in sustained weight loss? From what I have been learning so far weight loss is a hormonal issue (generally centered around insulin). If you stall out it is because your basal insulin is too high to allow further weight loss. Limiting calories is a poor and very temporary solution to the problem.

@carl @richard would like your opinion on this too to see if Iā€™ve got this right

(Tom) #75

@Pilotbob, I keep meaning to snip out a clip of @richard and @carl doing the Maiiiil! Thing for my email notification. :smile:

(Kel Ta) #76

good explanation- this probably explains the variation you see with some people eating crazy amounts of fat 5000 plus a day and losing weight

#77

Emphasis added by me.

Never is a strong word, and I never use it. Ooops! :wink:

First let me clarify that I am not saying that people should limit calories to lose weight, but if someone is fat-adapted, which includes a reasonable presumption that they can access body fat, and if they are not losing weight, then perhaps reducing their dietary intake of fat slowly will let their body make up the difference.

Personally, I think intermittent and extended fasting (IF & EF) are better choices for weight loss stalls because I think the problem for those people is that their fasting insulin is still too high and it is sabotaging the release of fatty acids from adipose tissue,

The studies that report that diets fail where limiting calories is the mechanism in weight loss donā€™t report 100% failure in sustaining the loss, just often around 99% - yes, extremely high and many of these dieters repeat the cycle ending up in yo-yo dieting and I was one of them to roughly 500 lbs gained and then lost over the years.

For many people who do persevere, it seems to get harder and harder as their hormones work against them and itā€™s probably insulin, but could be thyroid, testosterone (men and women have it) or leptin, ghrelin, etc.

So, it is ā€œpossibleā€ to sustain weight loss by limiting calories, but many peopleā€™s metabolisms are so deranged they canā€™t or it eventually works against them.

Dr. Stephen Phinney and Dr. Jeff Volek report a study where the top 25% of people tested were so insulin sensitive that they seemed to have no issues eating anything without immediate consequences, but Iā€™d predict that as many of them get older, they wonā€™t be so lucky.

[quote=ā€œsiobhan, post:74, topic:4271ā€]From what I have been learning so far weight loss is a hormonal issue (generally centered around insulin). If you stall out it is because your basal insulin is too high to allow further weight loss.
[/quote]

I totally agree although testosterone and estradiol (estrogen) could be a factor.

[quote=ā€œsiobhan, post:74, topic:4271ā€]Limiting calories is a poor and very temporary solution to the problem.
[/quote]

Agreed, it just gets harder and harder over time to sustain the weight loss.

As a personal example, I was someone who gained and lost about 500 lbs through mostly a CICO paradigm, although to a large degree it limited refined carbohydrates and I didnā€™t track actual grams at the time, it was not what we would consider LCHF and definitely not keto.

If was hard, it was damn hard! I was hungry all the time, I was usually very tired and almost always in pain, even in my 20ā€™s but I did it.

I even reversed T2D after a few years of changing diet and exercise to the point were my HbA1C values were normal, but it was a constant struggle.

When I finally found LCHF, it became much easier to maintain my weight and even easier after I went keto and even easier when I added IF and EF to the point that I needed to make an effort to keep from losing weight.

However, I was averaging about 1,000 - 1,200 calories a day and thanks to keto and fat I wasnā€™t hungry, but given my height, 6 ft (183 cm), that was too low, so I set on a path to raise my average daily calories and increase my BMR and that process is still going on, but Iā€™ve raised my daily average by 500 calories and still maintained my weight.

Fundamentally, itā€™s all about the hormones.

(Kel Ta) #78

this is an interesting journey, I guess I appreciate what Dr. Ted Naiman has been highlighting about reducing fat once fat adapted to encourage burning your own fat- I am sure methods and approaches are diverse as each human and each person has to find what works- obviously it changes apparently with time.

In addition I think the BMR is a really interesting conundrum- do you know of any materials written specifically on managing BMR and how to increase it via increase in calories? I am also not sure if there is any research on overall health benefits to keeping BMR at a certain level?

(Siobhan) #79

As for the second half, there are a lot of studies cited in The Obesity Code that state an increase in calories consistently increases BMR, while a decrease in calories consistently results in lowered BMR.
The health benefit comes from what ā€œincreased BMRā€ really means - your body has to use up the energy somehow, and most of it is from internal systems like heating, cell repair, increasing bone density, etc
This is supported by the fact that people who ate a ton more calories than is recommended saw an increase in lean body mass, and sometimes bone density, meaning that when they were eating more part of what the body was doing was building new muscle and bone.
This is what I learned from The Obesity Code by Dr Fung - Iā€™m still new to this line of thinking, but I think @carl @billjay and maybe @brenda would have studies they can specifically link on it.

Yeah, I definitely agree on that. I have found this to be true for many people, as well as myself.
Iā€™ll concede I shouldnā€™t have said never. Rather - according to the research Iā€™ve seen often the conclusion is that what relation there is between long term weight loss (e.g. not yo-yoā€™ing) that limiting calories often ends up in lowered BMR. Only a sith deals in absolutes and all that.

Bolded are ones I definitely agree with - not that I disagree with the testosterone one, I just havenā€™t heard anything about it. Any links?

Iā€™m not sure Iā€™d qualify limiting calories not working long term as ā€œderangedā€ I think it is actually working exactly as its supposed to. imo (not very scientific but there you go) feasting/fasting or at least eating normally and then fasting is what the body is designed to handle, not consistently lowered calorie intake. But then again I donā€™t believe people in the ambiguous ā€œback thenā€ really got overweight enough or tried to diet in the first place, so it might not have come up (lol).
Although, that said, Iā€™m sure there are people it works for. Thereā€™s got to be at least one or two for the ā€œcalories in calories outā€ meme to not completely die off within a few years. Like you said - itā€™s probably that 25%
I would like to see that 25% endure caloric restriction and see if they react the same way, though.

I wouldnā€™t be surprised. You often hear the trope of the thin guy who doesnā€™t get fat until his 30s or 40s. Whether those guys are in the 25% though, I donā€™t know.
It also likely widely varies by their genetics, their ancestors exposure to carbs in the past, etc as well. For some people CICO will probably definitely work, I just donā€™t really know who they are and the question of whether itā€™s the best option to take regardless I donā€™t really know either. I guess every person has to experiment and come to their own conclusion.

If I could change one thing though, for the entire world, is that for the majority of people CICO is not so simple as it sounds. Our bodies rebel against it, and sometimes it just flat out doesnā€™t work. I had experimented with CICO (very briefly) and just got headaches, awful mood, low energy, etc. But Iā€™m not everyone, soā€¦
If we could get the general thought of the public to ā€œweight loss and health is hormonal, not calorie driven (although there are exceptions)ā€ I think we would be much better off for it. Considering the people that applies to are in the majority, it would make much more sense than to take something that applies to maybe a quarter of the population and call the other 75% (or whatever it is) a failure when it doesnā€™t work for them. An individualized approach that encourages n=1 is something Iā€™d like to see for the future.

(Kel Ta) #80

I think there is a subtle distinction that I am interested in- that there is CICO and then there is fat restriction after fat adaptation- theyā€™re different effects and I think many people use the latter on a Keto diet and LCHF to get the body composition they are afterā€¦